Time periods (dimensions)

[Cruel2BKind]

Originally Posted by Stella_Omega

And again, if your characters are not pseudo-European, you got some 'splaining to do. Like, if your elves or mermaids have bronze skin and thick curly black hair. Or your dwarf warriors are female.

it was easier for me to place Despina Jones in a slightly futuristic sci fi setting, because that standard fantasy assumption is so damn pervasive

There were people of color in europe, and most pseudo-european fantasy settings. I say Tolkein because (as far as I know) he was one of the first to write about it, and a lot of writers (COUGH*eragon*COUGH) are just writing in his shadow. But in The song of ice and fire, there are plenty of different races. Even new ones.

[PennLady]

Originally Posted by Cruel2BKind

There were people of color in europe, and most pseudo-european fantasy settings. I say Tolkein because (as far as I know) he was one of the first to write about it, and a lot of writers (COUGH*eragon*COUGH) are just writing in his shadow. But in The song of ice and fire, there are plenty of different races. Even new ones.

I'd have to argue this point, and I've read both Tolkein's LOTR trilogy and all the Ice and Fire books to date. Martin has indeed created a world and it's rich and detailed. So far there have been no elves, fairies, etc. It's a more realistic fantasy than many stories, so far. The only real "nonhuman" race so far are the White Walkers (zombies, they seem to be). No question that Westeros is modeled on Europe, but also no question that pretty much everyone in Westeros is white. You don't find any non-white races (as I recall) until you cross the Narrow Sea. And then you have the swarthy, savage Dothraki.

My point being that it's a great series, and I love the TV show, but I don't really think Martin has broken any new fantasy ground.

[JaxRhapsody]

Speaking of fantasy and magic; a story Im writing takes place in the future of the universe I write my stories in. An alternate one at that where magic has always been and the government is trying to cease the acts furthur pushing towards an apocalyptic time line. Who said magic had to be angelo-saxton? There is magic based technology, spell books are on CD-ROM and PDF files.

I like to write in the present but The Gifted(described above) and Death(which i think Ill cease) took place in alternate futures. I never enjoyed pre-1980s time based stories that much. But I am writing a version on Alice In Wonderland.

[Cruel2BKind]

Originally Posted by PennLady

I'd have to argue this point, and I've read both Tolkein's LOTR trilogy and all the Ice and Fire books to date. Martin has indeed created a world and it's rich and detailed. So far there have been no elves, fairies, etc. It's a more realistic fantasy than many stories, so far. The only real "nonhuman" race so far are the White Walkers (zombies, they seem to be). No question that Westeros is modeled on Europe, but also no question that pretty much everyone in Westeros is white. You don't find any non-white races (as I recall) until you cross the Narrow Sea. And then you have the swarthy, savage Dothraki.

My point being that it's a great series, and I love the TV show, but I don't really think Martin has broken any new fantasy ground.

Not just dothraki. Braavosi, Valerians, lyseni, and from the southern isles... and yi ti...

Technically lyseni and valerians were white, but the rest were darker.

[PennLady]

Originally Posted by Cruel2BKind

Not just dothraki. Braavosi, Valerians, lyseni, and from the southern isles... and yi ti...

Technically lyseni and valerians were white, but the rest were darker.

The Braavosis said "Italian" to me.

Like I said, I think the books and show are great, so I'm not complaining. I am just noting that I don't think Martin has set up a new fantasy standard.

[sr71plt]

Originally Posted by DeeZire

True but.... there is an audience for stories that make us think about more than sex. And it is possible to include political issues in a piece without preaching to the reader.

You're sliding off the discussion in several different directions at once. There was no question on whether there was an audience for something. And the point on writing about the present stemmed from the claim that the present couldn't ignore all of the present-day issues. Sure it can; In fact, conversely, one story can't cover all of the present-day issues.

So, you're not really discussing anything here that I was.

[Stella_Omega]

So, why are there no elves with rich dark brown skin and tightly curled black hair, wideset eyes, full lips and soft noses? or-- hobbits of color?

The filmmakers could have cast one entire race of LOTR that way. it's not unthinkable. I mean-- we got talking trees, dragons, magic dudes who turn out to be eons old. Why not black elves?


Why should Estelle Daniels not be Arwen Undòmel?


How about Peter Mensah as Elrond?


The Dothraki might as well be Scotsmen.

ETA:

Originally Posted by Spacefender

And yet plenty of fantasy settings have black elves.

I'm sorry, I missed this comment... Do you have links to any black elves?

[SevenSquared]

I agree that you don't need to know absolutely everything about a time period to be able to write about it, or even much about the political and social landscape at all. In fact, providing you don't leave the bedroom, most people could probably write a story believably in any time period. Unfortunately you don't have to venture far out of the bedroom to start encountering a lot of little issues. Unless you actually lived through that time period, there will be lots of little things that seem insignificant but provide hundreds of little stumbling blocks for the author.

Oh your characters are going somewhere? How are they getting there? Would someone of their socio-economic status likely have a car in this time period? So they're having a meal, what did people commonly eat for dinner in this time? What tools did they have available? What period 'celebrities' might they make references or comparisons to? What 'street slang' did people use at the time? How did we find stuff out before we had the internet again?

Of course, you can research these things, but that takes time if you have to do it every other paragraph. Or you can gloss over it, ignoring part of the world you're not sure about, but that can make your story very shallow and bland. Or you can just wing it and make stuff up, but someone might call you on it, and even if they don't a lot of writers can't bring themselves to do this as they want everything as authentic as possible.

Personally I haven't ventured out of the present day yet. I would really like to at some point, but I haven't yet plucked up the courage.

[sr71plt]

Yes, research. If it's worth it to work in another time period, it's worth it to do the research. That's no longer that difficult to do. You don't have to actually go to the library.

[Cruel2BKind]

But my favorite part about writing is the character building... and building a world is like building a character.

I love the two-teired city of Pangea almost as much (if not more) than Kip and Ari.

I loved creating Raltings county, and I certainly loved it more than Tam and Taylor did.

I loved the different shades of past and future I used, zombie apocalypse, werewolf Native Americans, mermen in victorian England, sexy vikings

Now that I look, the bulk of my stories are written in the present. Tenderness, Poor Simon, Eyes Like Winona, both of my contest stories.

But there's just something I love about creating different worlds.

[Bramblethorn]

Originally Posted by Stella_Omega

So, why are there no elves with rich dark brown skin and tightly curled black hair, wideset eyes, full lips and soft noses? or-- hobbits of color?

I'm pretty sure Tolkien specified elvish coloration somewhere along the way, so it would've been impossible to do brown elves without violating canon. And we all know the movie adaptations would never violate published canon ;-)

There are some dark-skinned humans and non-humans in the films; unfortunately, they're all working for Sauron or Saruman.

Originally Posted by Stella_Omega

ETA: I'm sorry, I missed this comment... Do you have links to any black elves?

D&D (and I think some other D&D-influenced settings) has the Drow, who are evil matriarchal elves with black skin who live underground. This probably isn't helping...

[Cruel2BKind]

Originally Posted by Bramblethorn

I'm pretty sure Tolkien specified elvish coloration somewhere along the way, so it would've been impossible to do brown elves without violating canon. And we all know the movie adaptations would never violate published canon ;-)

There are some dark-skinned humans and non-humans in the films; unfortunately, they're all working for Sauron or Saruman.



D&D (and I think some other D&D-influenced settings) has the Drow, who are evil matriarchal elves with black skin who live underground. This probably isn't helping...

Tolkien was a flaming racist...

And I saw an illustration of the Drou... They're blue.

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_GMn2Bh8I07...+Kuip+2010.jpg

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

Much of what I write is set in the 1890s. Its a world that's alien to our own, and bizarre without embroidering it with fantasy. Like Cormac McCarthys BLOOD MERIDIAN.

[Bramblethorn]

Originally Posted by Cruel2BKind

And I saw an illustration of the Drou... They're blue.

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_GMn2Bh8I07...+Kuip+2010.jpg

Canon says their skin is jet black, unless it's changed in the newer editions.

That said, a lot of artists seem to have decided that "jet black" is too hard to draw and gone with varying shades of grey, brown, or occasionally blue.

Also, I question the protective value of her armour.

[Spacefender]

Originally Posted by Bramblethorn

D&D (and I think some other D&D-influenced settings) has the Drow, who are evil matriarchal elves with black skin who live underground. This probably isn't helping...

In some of those D&D influenced settings they're not always evil. Though they generally are still matriarchal and live underground.

[soflabbwlvr]

Originally Posted by Spacefender

In some of those D&D influenced settings they're not always evil. Though they generally are still matriarchal and live underground.

Originally Posted by Bramblethorn

Canon says their skin is jet black, unless it's changed in the newer editions.

That said, a lot of artists seem to have decided that "jet black" is too hard to draw and gone with varying shades of grey, brown, or occasionally blue.

Also, I question the protective value of her armour.

A note for you Drow fans: Etaski is writing extensively on this subject. She has two four part series completed, and is up to chapter 11 in the latest series. I don't normally read sci-fi on Lit., but these stories are as good as anything I have ever read on this site. Take a look, starting with Sisterhood.

[bashfullyshameless]

Originally Posted by Cruel2BKind

What is your favorite period to write in? What has posted the most of a challenge?

My favorite arena is the future, because you can do so many things, and imagination is so free. You can create a world with any kind of parameters or mindsets or societal norms.

The biggest challenge for me was when I tried to write a story set specifically in the early seventies.

When I was a teen and I had aspirations of writing (and did a fair amount at the time), I figured it would always be easier to do high fantasy and/or futuristic sci-fi, because I could just make stuff up and I wouldn't have to worry about research and thinking everything through.

Turns out: HOLY SHIT, world-building is HARD.

Having now done a modern urban fantasy novel, a futuristic sci-fi novel and a bunch of short stories including high fantasy, I gotta say I find the modern day much, much easier. You have less to explain. You don't have to worry about whether or not you should describe how stores work, or what people wear, or what prevailing attitudes are toward race/gender/religion/sex. That's all generally a given. You can just say a guy is wearing a "suit;" you don't have to actually get into arguments with yourself over whether or not to describe for your reader what formal wear in the 23rd Century looks like and whether or not your reader will care--because some will and some won't.

It's hard to pick a "favorite," because they all have their virtues and their disadvantages. But having had some experience now, I can certainly point to which one I think is easiest.

[Bramblethorn]

Originally Posted by bashfullyshameless

Turns out: HOLY SHIT, world-building is HARD.

Only if you care about doing it right!

There is a lot of really crappy world-building out there in published F/SF. I remember one fantasy novel seemed to have drawn its trade economy from Settlers of Catan.

[Stella_Omega]

Originally Posted by Bramblethorn

Canon says their skin is jet black, unless it's changed in the newer editions.

That said, a lot of artists seem to have decided that "jet black" is too hard to draw and gone with varying shades of grey, brown, or occasionally blue.

Also, I question the protective value of her armour.

The artwork portrays them with Caucasian features, too. Jet black isn't so gratifying to people who want their entertainment to incorporate their own images once in a while.

Originally Posted by Bramblethorn

Only if you care about doing it right!

There is a lot of really crappy world-building out there in published F/SF. I remember one fantasy novel seemed to have drawn its trade economy from Settlers of Catan.

It most likely started off as fanfiction.

Although we make a huge fuss about creating brand new worlds for our stories, the truth is that is not necessarily an imperative need for storytellers, or for the needs of the story. Storytellers have shared worlds in commonality ever since the third caveman had a story to tell.

[Bramblethorn]

Originally Posted by Stella_Omega

The artwork portrays them with Caucasian features, too. Jet black isn't so gratifying to people who want their entertainment to incorporate their own images once in a while.

There's an interesting anecdote about that here: http://summer-of-supervillainy.tumbl...-so-damn-white

Originally Posted by Stella_Omega

It most likely started off as fanfiction.

That does happen a lot, but I don't think it was in this case. The overall plot of the book wasn't drawn from Catan, but the trade economy seemed to be based entirely on wheat, timber, clay, metal, and livestock, which just happen to be the five resources in a well-known board game.

(I'm not convinced that world should have had ANY trade economy, since travel was hellishly dangerous, but that's another matter...)

Originally Posted by Stella_Omega

Although we make a huge fuss about creating brand new worlds for our stories, the truth is that is not necessarily an imperative need for storytellers, or for the needs of the story. Storytellers have shared worlds in commonality ever since the third caveman had a story to tell.

Indeed. I don't think that's necessarily a bad thing, as long as it's done in a spirit of "I have an interesting story to tell in Setting X" and not "Setting X is popular, so if I recycle it people will like my story".

[YDB95]

I've found just about every decade of the 20th century is equally challenging if you're committed to anything resembling historical accuracy. There are just so many subtle changes, and so many things probably no one is going to appreciate without having been there at the time. That's why for one of my two historical series on here, I invented a sort of parallel universe that has certain elements of a past mixed with modern attitudes about a number of things, including sex. For the other one, I have tried to stick with reality, and it's tougher. Both are quite popular with my readers, though.

The future is a lot easier: by definition, you can't be wrong. If George Lucas can make it up as he goes along, so can I.

[TxRad]

Several of the stories I've posted dealing with event in the late 60's, early 70's, have met with some comments from reads about drinking and driving, smoking, smoking pot, and other common everyday thing from that time.

Like YDB said, times they keep changing. If you weren't there it doesn't fit with today and that's where the rub is.

[Stella_Omega]

Originally Posted by Bramblethorn

There's an interesting anecdote about that here: http://summer-of-supervillainy.tumbl...-so-damn-white

OMG, I could give you ten more links right now, but this issue has already hijacked this thread a hella lot.

But in the notes you'll find someone earnestly explaining that D&D is "mostly white" because their settings are taken from Norse mythology. Like-- they didn't even read the article they were responding to.

....


Indeed. I don't think that's necessarily a bad thing, as long as it's done in a spirit of "I have an interesting story to tell in Setting X" and not "Setting X is popular, so if I recycle it people will like my story".

But "people liking my story" IS an enormous motivation for storytellers. How many noted writers have said flat out that they chose a genre because it was sale-able? How many people come here and ask which category is the most popular, because they intend to write in it?