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Old 12-17-2012, 12:27 PM   #2301
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Doubt can serve you well, if you train it. It must become a way of knowing, a good critic. Every time doubt wants to spoil something for you, ask why it finds something ugly and demand proofs. Thus tested by you, doubt may become bewildered and embarrassed, even aggressive. But don't give in, demand reasons and be persistent and attentive every single time, and the day will come when, instead of a destroyer, he will become one of your best servants—perhaps one of the most intelligent of those who help you build your life.

- Rainer Maria Rilke
Letters to a Young Poet

edited to add - as soon as I posted this, I knew I'd posted it before - July 10, 2010 http://forum.literotica.com/showthre...e#post34519379

It just goes to show how long it takes to really understand something.

Last edited by eastern sun : 12-17-2012 at 12:33 PM.
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Old 12-17-2012, 11:44 PM   #2302
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Someone I respect a great deal points out that fear - of the "I'm about to be destroyed kind" - is a state that can lead to great openness of mind, to the direct perception of life exactly as it is, to a certain kind of bliss, if you don't shut down, wall yourself off, call a halt, back away, until the fear subsides.
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Old 12-24-2012, 04:13 AM   #2303
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Post re: phase change

Quote:
Originally Posted by eastern sun View Post
I am still a disappointing slave, far more likely to protect my own interests than promote his. And the fundamental problem is always doubt. [...]
And that doubt turns the sweet honey of service and devotion into hot molten lead which - when cooled - transforms my normally flexible nature into a rigid, insensitive, and potentially toxic "shield."
I don't want to further complicate this very complex metaphor, but when lead is in a solid state, it is always a very malleable substance.
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Old 12-25-2012, 12:54 AM   #2304
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I don't want to further complicate this very complex metaphor, but when lead is in a solid state, it is always a very malleable substance.
Then there is hope for me yet. . . .

(It's good to see you, Mitchell67. I have missed you.)
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Old 12-29-2012, 07:26 AM   #2305
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Random non sequitur (less because it belongs here than because i'm not sure who else would care to read it)

I've had a couple DS dreams again, which sadly is rare in itself, but what has made these dreams particularly noteworthy is that in them I was top/ dominant.

what few little details i can remember happen to sound very much like things i've already posted on lit at times, which leaves little doubt about their inspiration, except that those posts were a while ago... at least i think they were a while ago.

Perhaps i should scour my own post history a bit.

My dreams tend not to feature sex, and this was not really an exception, but as with other DS dreams the absence of sex made the dream both frustrating and more interesting. The major difference here was that there was no past memories for the sake of this dream (sexual or not), no expectation or inference that sexual intercourse would happen, and no "script" that the dream seemed to by straying from.

One part of one of the dreams i remember in particular; it was at a play party more or less identical to the one i've been to, and I remember asking for objections to "the first three stages of a scene" there in the den, rather than in the play rooms, and from there it seemed to take the air of a performance.

With 'dolly' facing me in the middle of the room; stage one was establishing a safeword, stage 2 was a fairly mild public interrogation about her physical condition; ...back/ neck problems? had she ever dislocated her arms? was she under the influence of alchohol, narcotics, or painkillers? what were her expectations from this experience?

I think what struck me most about these two dreams was that, in both of these particular dreams at least, I was somewhat polished and professional, if a bit tame.

Stage three was almost comedic in that i borrowed a line drilled into me in massage school; I held out a gallon zipper bag, & looking her in the eye "you may disrobe as much as you feel comfortable." In massage of course this is something told to a client as the therapist leaves the room, not to a sub standing nervously in the middle of a crowd.

I remember asking someone to bring a tea service up to us before leading 'dolly' by her hair up stairs to the play rooms. I lay her down on the floor and massaged her neck and back, more to palpate where she was tense than to relieve jitters; it seemed to make her more nervous rather than less. "I don't like to break my toys, so I'm looking for cracks," I told her. When the tea service came I poured some of the hot water onto a towel and used olive oil & the hot towel to remove her makeup.

I remember talking an awful lot for a scene... most of it i forget honestly, but I think that first part was a combination of laying out my own boundaries and expectations, as well as setting a framework for a "dolly/ boy" pseudo role-play dynamic. I remember getting confrontational at one point; "since we are new to each other we will be playing relatively soft, and we will not be fucking. Are you disappointed yet?"

I remember brass scissors which I used for mild knife play as well as for safety equipment. Punishment for any misbehavior in that room was to be loss of a lock of hair, which i did once; "bad dollies have very little hair."

If Dolly felt she needed to be punished for anything else in her life she was to tell me, for which she could have all the spankings she needed, and we spent some time on that; I would brush her hair while she confessed, spank her with the brush after, then brushed or braided her hair during following confessions.

it gets progressively more hazy, this was the clearer parts of one of the dreams, and the two dreams kinda blend around this point; Bondage featured off & on through much of both dreams. Decorating each other with sharpies, i do remember having henna and not using it (for some reason henna features in most of my DS dreams). I drew artsy wings on her, and separately (i think in the other dream actually) showed her what my mostly faded scars used to say, permitting her to "counter decorate" my other leg "for balance"

Rope bondage & the whole rings thing i've done for my wife featured in one of the dreams, I think it was coupled with the decorative wings... I seem to remember playfully justifying the rings bondage with "preventing dolly from flying away" (the combined weight of the brass rings is comparable to wearing a chain mail shirt, so no jumping) which was followed by going back down stairs to catch a movie, allowing her to show off my work.
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Old 12-29-2012, 09:26 AM   #2306
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stag of Oberon View Post
"I don't like to break my toys, so I'm looking for cracks," I told her.
I you, Stag.

I think your experience on the bottom would make you an exceptional top.
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Old 12-29-2012, 04:04 PM   #2307
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eastern sun View Post
I think your experience on the bottom would make you an exceptional top.
Thank you?

I tend to be uncomfortable with compliments in general (huge understatement), but given how fleeting my experience as a submissive was, this sentiment is particularly difficult to accept.

Sure my wife tops me on rare occasion, but my very limited opportunity to be both submissive and bottom was ages ago and vanishingly brief. It's hard to believe then that those few moments would give me any special skill that I wouldn't have developed without them, that any insight gleaned in that moment could not have been derived since, and that any advantage gained then would not have atrophied in this interim.

If I had any particular gift for dominance I would prefer to attribute it primarily to my own force of personality , however quiet and twisted that may be, and to educations I have spent more considerable resources on, such as massage training... or lit.
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Old 12-30-2012, 04:29 AM   #2308
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I feel like I should apologize for taking your compliment so poorly.

as a young adult, compliments came from grandparents, or from people looking to either take advantage of me or set me up for public humiliation. To some extent I occasionally still feel taken advantage of/ for granted even when my wife compliments me in certain ways... which I fully acknowledge is sad and fucked up.

the notion that my dominant side is at all independent from my submissive experience is... fledgling?
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Old 12-30-2012, 10:43 AM   #2309
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stag of Oberon View Post
I feel like I should apologize for taking your compliment so poorly.

as a young adult, compliments came from grandparents, or from people looking to either take advantage of me or set me up for public humiliation. To some extent I occasionally still feel taken advantage of/ for granted even when my wife compliments me in certain ways... which I fully acknowledge is sad and fucked up.

the notion that my dominant side is at all independent from my submissive experience is... fledgling?
Stag, I think you're wonderful. I always enjoy reading your posts. And I agree with you - that your personality and massage training probably have a lot more significance. What do I know, really? I offer my opinions blithely, having seen only the tiniest tip of the iceberg.

I always think of you in the winter. The white stag of legend, whose appearance always brings with it an encounter with magic and enchantment. It is a very strong persona. Sometimes we (and I include myself in this pronoun) feel we need to make ourselves smaller than we actually are in order to fit into our day-to-day worlds. I often wonder what would happen if I didn't.
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Old 12-31-2012, 03:42 PM   #2310
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Quote:
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Sometimes we feel we need to make ourselves smaller than we actually are in order to fit into our day-to-day worlds. I often wonder what would happen if I didn't.
well... some people get promoted?

other people get fired for insubordination.
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Old 02-19-2013, 11:25 PM   #2311
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My work outside the home is gaining momentum. And though my slave mind is extremely beneficial in my work, I am losing my status as slave at home.

I cannot be his slave if I am unable to meet his needs.

I am frequently unable to meet his needs when I prioritize my own agenda over his.

I am disappointed.

I want my slavery in my work environment to be good enough.

It isn't.
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Old 02-20-2013, 02:20 AM   #2312
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Quote:
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I want my slavery in my work environment to be good enough.
Why ?
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Old 02-20-2013, 04:46 PM   #2313
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Quote:
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Why ?
I want him to see how hard I'm working over there =>
and forgive my failure to meet his needs over here.

He says it as he sees it.
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Old 02-25-2013, 06:56 AM   #2314
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Smile re: analytical

Quote:
Originally Posted by eastern sun View Post
My work outside the home is gaining momentum. And though my slave mind is extremely beneficial in my work, I am losing my status as slave at home.
I cannot be his slave if I am unable to meet his needs.
I am frequently unable to meet his needs when I prioritize my own agenda over his.
I am disappointed.
I want my slavery in my work environment to be good enough.
It isn't.
I only hear your side of this notion of disappointment. You seem to be defining what your servitude and determining whether you meet your own standards, or at least, whether you feel you meet your own standards.
What exactly is a slave status? Are you buying more take out and have your floors not been scrubbed recently? Is another slave gaining status while yours drops?
Really you cannot be his slave? Is there a cutoff, too, when he stops being a master? Does the same apply to being a wife?
You contradict yourself then by writing that you want your slavery in your work environment to be good enough. Who is the master in your work environment? Is it your own ego?
I get the sense that you use the notion of disappointment as a cover for other dynamics at play in this metadrama. Have you even identified the causes of your disappointment if that is all it is about?
Would it not be more productive for all if instead you explained better what you are gaining momentum on and pondered why you undermine it by stressing the negative implications?
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Old 02-25-2013, 12:53 PM   #2315
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Quote:
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I only hear your side of this notion of disappointment. You seem to be defining what your servitude and determining whether you meet your own standards, or at least, whether you feel you meet your own standards.
What exactly is a slave status? Are you buying more take out and have your floors not been scrubbed recently? Is another slave gaining status while yours drops?
Really you cannot be his slave? Is there a cutoff, too, when he stops being a master? Does the same apply to being a wife?
You contradict yourself then by writing that you want your slavery in your work environment to be good enough. Who is the master in your work environment? Is it your own ego?
I get the sense that you use the notion of disappointment as a cover for other dynamics at play in this metadrama. Have you even identified the causes of your disappointment if that is all it is about?
Would it not be more productive for all if instead you explained better what you are gaining momentum on and pondered why you undermine it by stressing the negative implications?
Sometimes I wish he wrote more frequently, so you could read his take on my statements without having his voice filtered through me.

In the earliest days of this thread, though, I asked him if I could have it all to myself, to create a place where I could write about my slavery and the internal experiences and thoughts it gives rise to. A "room of my own," so to speak. He liked the glimpses it gave him of my internal world. So, he stayed a reader - and I've tried to add his voice whenever he comments directly on one of my posts.

I've been writing here for a few years, though, and over time - things change. Power shifts in subtle and not so subtle ways. Desires are acted on, and new fantasies take shape. Reality creates opportunities and obstacles that change the course of a life.

It's easier to write this morning, because last night - for the first time in months - he said "I want to be your master." It was a direct response to me changing my behavior around him - being more pleasing, more responsive, catering to his needs without being spoken to, sexually arousing him, and putting his interests and priorities ahead of my own.

When I say "I cannot be his slave," I mean that he has told me he is not interested in being my master. Over the years, he has made it very clear to me that he is not interested in "pretending M/s" where it doesn't exist. If I am not actively serving him - which may be because I am prioritizing the needs of our children, my work, my friends and/or myself over his explicit instructions - then he does not want to be master. (If my self-prioritizing only happens once or twice, he'll make a joke of it, but eventually it stops being ironic and is just annoying.)

As soon as I demonstrate my willingness to obey and serve him, my "status" as slave returns and rises simultaneously. Though there are circumstances in which I judge myself more harshly than he does, circumstances in which I think I have failed and he is perfectly happy with my effort, we are not there right now. A couple of months ago, he told me point blank that I was lying to myself if I thought I was a slave. I was still his wife, and would continue to be, but not his slave. And though he is not seeing other slaves, he has been writing to them on fetlife.

My disappointment comes, because I have loved being his slave. My experience as his slave allowed me to develop certain mental, emotional and spiritual behaviors that have been of clear benefit to me in my everyday world. I feel more integrated and healthier, less self-centered and anxious than I did before I was a 24/7 slave.

As I think you are aware, I am working outside the home - and though I don't make much money (which would better serve him by relieving him of the burden of supporting our family) - my work gives me tremendous opportunities to be of service in my community. Other people - outside our home - perceive me as a modest, generous, hard worker. And, honestly, in the long run I feel much more comfortable building my self-esteem on the work I'm doing in my community rather than on my success as a slave in a TPE.

With my busier schedule, I do order takeout more frequently, and the floors do go unscrubbed. However, in the long trajectory of our relationship, I am still much better today as a domestic servant than I was in my early 30's. As a young woman, I was still fighting a lost cause - hoping against hope that being a modern woman meant I wouldn't have to spend my days doing menial housework. Today, in large part because of my experience as a slave, I am much, much happier doing housework - deeply satisfied by the task itself. I just don't have as much time.

My disappointment arises because I want to be his slave. Sometimes because I want to escape the responsibilities of my work and lose myself in simple tasks that are clearly defined. Sometimes because I miss the peace of mind and meditative state that slavery induced in me. Sometimes because I want an orgasm.

Primarily though, because it is the nature of our relationship together - and without it, we don't interact much. Writing of my disappointment here a few days ago caused me to focus on our relationship, to focus on him, and make the shifts in my priorities that are necessary to serve him as he wants to be served.

It may sound like it's all just me spinning my own mental wheels. But I only get to be his slave, when he's willing to be my master.
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Old 02-26-2013, 12:23 PM   #2316
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Here's the problem - he doesn't perceive the work I'm doing as having value in his world.

He recognizes its value in the world, but doesn't see any real benefits - only liabilities - in his world. The effort I put into that work - which is significant - is effort I am not giving his priorities, allowing them to languish until I have time.

On the other hand, his ability and willingness to support the family has allowed me the freedom to create this new work. Which means his effort - with is significant - has clear benefits in my world.

If it is simply an issue of following directions, I get it. I either do or do not make the phone call, file the form, wash the dishes, do the laundry. I completely understand his frustration when I don't do something he has asked me to do (though I sometimes wish he could see things from my perspective).

The problem is - I don't want to compromise my own growth, and the growth of my new business, in order to be a better slave. I thought maybe I did. But I really don't.

I recognize how lucky I am to be in this position. I am incredibly fortunate. But I have also worked very, very hard - and made many sacrifices over the years to arrive at this point in our relationship.

The question - Can I still be his slave and create my own priorities?
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Old 03-01-2013, 07:54 AM   #2317
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The question - Can I still be his slave and create my own priorities?
I'm thinking there isn't an easy answer to this question.
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Old 03-01-2013, 10:33 AM   #2318
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Quote:
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Here's the problem - he doesn't perceive the work I'm doing as having value in his world.

He recognizes its value in the world, but doesn't see any real benefits - only liabilities - in his world. The effort I put into that work - which is significant - is effort I am not giving his priorities, allowing them to languish until I have time.

On the other hand, his ability and willingness to support the family has allowed me the freedom to create this new work. Which means his effort - with is significant - has clear benefits in my world.

If it is simply an issue of following directions, I get it. I either do or do not make the phone call, file the form, wash the dishes, do the laundry. I completely understand his frustration when I don't do something he has asked me to do (though I sometimes wish he could see things from my perspective).

The problem is - I don't want to compromise my own growth, and the growth of my new business, in order to be a better slave. I thought maybe I did. But I really don't.

I recognize how lucky I am to be in this position. I am incredibly fortunate. But I have also worked very, very hard - and made many sacrifices over the years to arrive at this point in our relationship.

The question - Can I still be his slave and create my own priorities?
I think you've answered your own question. If he does value you more than just as his slave? How can he not value your world, how can he not value your growth or your business? Do you only value him only as your Master or Owner, if owner is the term you prefer? It doesn't seem so.

If all he cares about is how it effects HIM and you're willing to except that, give up your growth, become stagnant, give up your world, give up your business become his doormat because that's what you really are to him a doormat. But be prepared because that type of man, is going to eventually become tired of you and replace you with another, no matter how good a slave you happen to be.

If he really cares for you he'll compromise, he gets you sometimes as a slave, at other times as a free woman who can stand on her own two feet. I don't see you as a weak woman, you have freewill, you can walk away if that is what you have to do. Hard choice, yes but one you can make if you have to.

Quote:
(though I sometimes wish he could see things from my perspective)
My relationship is not like yours but when the day comes that Jessie can't at least try to see things from my perspective or at least compromise, is the day I walk, no matter if I'm still in love or not.

Just my feelings.
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Old 03-01-2013, 07:16 PM   #2319
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I think you've answered your own question. If he does value you more than just as his slave? How can he not value your world, how can he not value your growth or your business? Do you only value him only as your Master or Owner, if owner is the term you prefer? It doesn't seem so.

If all he cares about is how it effects HIM and you're willing to except that, give up your growth, become stagnant, give up your world, give up your business become his doormat because that's what you really are to him a doormat. But be prepared because that type of man, is going to eventually become tired of you and replace you with another, no matter how good a slave you happen to be.

If he really cares for you he'll compromise, he gets you sometimes as a slave, at other times as a free woman who can stand on her own two feet. I don't see you as a weak woman, you have freewill, you can walk away if that is what you have to do. Hard choice, yes but one you can make if you have to.

My relationship is not like yours but when the day comes that Jessie can't at least try to see things from my perspective or at least compromise, is the day I walk, no matter if I'm still in love or not.

Just my feelings.
I appreciate your feelings.

We took this option off the table 25 years ago. It isn't possible to walk away.

Which means he "gets me sometimes as a slave, at other times as a free woman who can stand on her own two feet." That's really where it's at (though I do stand on my own two feet as a slave too ).

It feels a little wishy-washy to me, though. I want to know where these two feet are standing - independently of my behavior. In other words, I don't want my slavery to depend on my good behavior as a slave. I want my slavery to continue even while I'm the worst slave on earth, so that I have a chance to come round again. He thinks that's pretty self-serving on my part.

I have to agree.
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Old 03-02-2013, 07:00 AM   #2320
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The only formal agreement we have made is that we will not leave. No matter what. Apart from that there are no rules. Just the consequences of our action.

Neither of us is spared from the other's bad behavior. I have learned, as his "slave," not to harbor any expectations of change. Change occurs, but it is not because I demand it.

On the other hand, also because I am his "slave," when he asks for something, I try to do what he asks of me. He has learned that I may not succeed.

We're both happy in this arrangement, happier than we were before.

There was a time when I wanted a set of written rules. The instruction manual that would help me get it right. It's much harder without it, but my understanding of cause and effect, of my own values and desires, of his values and desires, of the laws of nature (including human nature), are much deeper for having to learn it by trial and error.

Because there are no safety nets though, it is vitally important that I trust him. And I do. I have lived with this man for twenty three years. He still continues to surprise me. But I trust him deeply.

I would not willingly give up so much to someone I did not know well and trust implicitly.
I wrote this in November 2008. What's changed?
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Old 03-02-2013, 08:51 AM   #2321
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I want to clarify for myself what my slavery has meant, so that - if I shed the slave-skin, I know what I am leaving behind.

In a volatile long-term relationship between two very strong, but complementary (and sometimes contradictory) forces, my slavery gave us both an opportunity to step outside of the conflict we can generate with each other. With such clear definitions of authority and decision-making procedures, I was able to relax in a way that I am not usually relaxed.

Like a huge sigh that signals my surrender to the force that he is in my life, my slavery allowed me to rest because - really - my little agenda in the world is not that important. At least no more important than anyone else's.

My slavery gave him pleasure, a kind of pleasure he didn't think he would actually find in this world. Which also means - having tasted that pleasure - he really misses it when I am unable to provide it. And the reward of giving him that pleasure - to this woman who loves to be a source of people's smiles, joy and release - was so deeply satisfying, I really miss it when I am unable to provide it.

Because he also rewarded me with the kind of sexual experiences I enjoy when I pleased him, I also had great sex. I miss that too.

My slavery emptied my mind of its habitual clutter. It gave me clear purpose and direction. It gave me simple, uncomplicated pleasures. It helped me overcome habitual patterns that were the source of struggle and conflict.

My work gives me clear purpose and direction - but it is not simple and uncomplicated. My mind is cluttered. And though I am able to extend what I've learned during my slavery to avoid struggle and conflict, at home with him I do not feel relaxed and at ease.

Is it possible to be slave at home and still do this work in the community?

He thinks I should be able to compartmentalize my life more successfully. But I am an addict through and through, with extremely poor self-discipline. Is it simply a matter of setting work hours? and sticking to them?

In the past, I have dropped my agenda at a moment's notice to respond to him - any time of day or week. I still do it in the margins of our day. But with so many hours spent at work, I'm much more likely to keep the list of his agenda, and work at it steadily over time. And there's a huge difference in the experience.

What is the single most significant difference I can make in my behavior, when I feel I must protect the boundaries of my work?
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Old 03-02-2013, 10:07 AM   #2322
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I have no idea, but you still fascinate me with your writing. We're at the 'holy crap this child controls us completely and we have no time/energy for sex, let alone D/s'. My role as a mother and housewife has made me the decision maker and I don't see a way around it.
I hope you find your answer xx
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Old 03-02-2013, 11:09 AM   #2323
rosco rathbone
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[quote=FloggingMolly;43435502My role as a mother and housewife has made me the decision maker and I don't see a way around it.
[/QUOTE]

Why is this necessarily the case? Especially if neither party wants it?
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Old 03-02-2013, 02:32 PM   #2324
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Why is this necessarily the case? Especially if neither party wants it?
Some of it is instinctive, I'm naturally more in tune with our son because I'm with him all the time. I have strong feelings about how I want to do things. It's hard to explain.
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Old 03-02-2013, 03:46 PM   #2325
eastern sun
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Quote:
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My role as a mother and housewife has made me the decision maker and I don't see a way around it.
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Originally Posted by rosco rathbone View Post
Why is this necessarily the case? Especially if neither party wants it?
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Originally Posted by FloggingMolly View Post
Some of it is instinctive, I'm naturally more in tune with our son because I'm with him all the time. I have strong feelings about how I want to do things. It's hard to explain.
The first major challenge in the power dynamics of our relationship was the birth of our son. My husband ceded authority immediately, because he really didn't know what to do with an infant. And, over the years, I have been impressed by the force and drive of the "maternal instinct."

We weren't living with formal M/s dynamics at that time, so the full weight of my subservience transferred to the child. Of my husband, I literally thought - "he's a grown man. He can take care of himself."

It was only later - after a few increasingly unhappy years - that we adopted the M/s structure formally to "rebalance" ourselves. He usually let me "make the decisions" regarding the kids' schedules, education, extracurricular activities, etc, claiming that it was because he thought I understood what they needed better than he did. I wonder how he would characterize it today.
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