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Old 12-05-2012, 09:43 AM   #1
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How do I approach the subject of rape with a potential lover?

As someone who has been through a lot of counseling and therapy -being a victim of rape- I have been encouraged over the years by many of my therapists to talk about it as part of who I am, so that people can understand what kind of potential problems can arise in the course of an intimate relationship. While I am not scared of sex anymore, I am absolutely terrified of committing to be with someone who could one-day "change" into this nightmare I have manufactured in my head.

When I try to express this to male potential lovers, I find that it often closes them off to me, and I feel like I have given up a piece of my soul to a stranger, getting nothing in return.

On the other hand, when I talk about it with female potential lovers, I usually get a much more favorable and understanding response, but sometimes I feel like the relationship is based on pity instead of mutual interest and physical attraction.

When I don't talk about it at all, it inevitably leads down a chaotic path of mis-communication and misunderstandings.

After over ten years of therapy, my therapists have yet to help me resolve this one issue satisfactorily. If you had a partner with this kind of baggage, how would you prefer they bring it up, and would it lead to a break-up, a relationship, or an obligation to you? How do others handle it? I feel like I am doomed to a life of sex without romance now. That used to be okay with me, but as I get older, I wonder if I can keep going like this.
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Old 12-05-2012, 09:50 AM   #2
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One day you will meet somebody who loves you, and will want to care for you make you happy, no matter what has happened in the past.

You will feel safe with them, and will want to make them happy. Dont worry all will be well, you just have to meet the right person.
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Old 12-05-2012, 10:46 AM   #3
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For me, this kind of thing would not lead to a break up. I would never judge someone for something which they have no control. Would it be a little scary to hear? Of course. Especially if you've gotten to the point where you care about the person. A guy's natural reaction may be to handle you with kid skin gloves after hearing that, but I don't think it should be perceived as negative, necessarily.

A guy does need to understand that dating a girl who has experienced such trauma may include a different set of rules when it comes to affection or sex. I think both parties need to understand and have fair and realistic expectations.

If it were me, I would prefer it to be brought up around the point where commitment was being considered. I'm not a casual sex guy, but if I was, before that would be preferable too. But I'm probably fair in making the assumption that you're not a casual sex girl either. Anyway, at the point where discussions are being had about the future... I'd bring it up then. I'd want you to sit down (in a private setting, not out at dinner or anything) and tell me that there is something important that you have to tell me. Then I'd like to hear you explain the situation. Allow for questions. Tell how it has affected you. Be honest about expectations from you and from him.

We all have baggage. We are all imperfect and broken in some capacity. Some events certainly leave more lasting scars. But if someone truly cares for you and if they are genuinely worth the exposure, then they deserve to know. Be open. Be honest. And set real expectations.
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Old 12-05-2012, 10:55 AM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eric60red View Post
One day you will meet somebody who loves you, and will want to care for you make you happy, no matter what has happened in the past.

You will feel safe with them, and will want to make them happy. Dont worry all will be well, you just have to meet the right person.
THIS ^^^ .

You need to talk about it, openly, with the people who are close to you. Some will react with awkward anxiety, some will go the pity route, and there will be others who simply accept it as part of your past. When it comes to being intimate with someone, they need to be aware of it, though, and it shouldn't come up when you're already close to "that moment." Find a way to bring it up while getting to know your partner's sexual past. And remember...it's PAST. Don't let it define you.
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Old 12-05-2012, 10:59 AM   #5
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What pmann said for the most part. I would also like to add that although you were raped, this should not be what defines you. As you mentioned early in your post, your therapists encourage you to talk about this as a part of who you are. There are a lot of parts that make us who we are, that shape us into the people we become. Don't let this one thing, as significant as it may be, be all that you are about.
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Old 12-05-2012, 12:14 PM   #6
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Certainly this was a tragic part of your life's history but the good news is that time can heal all wounds. For me personally my mindset does not understand why someone has to rape. It is a despicable act and certainly you have taken the correct actions and have worked with professionals during your time of healing. But keep in mind that it only a part of your past and you should work hard everyday to not let it "sculpt" who you are.

Everyone is different and an appropriate answer for you is something only you can answer for yourself. In your mind it may seem demeaning and it is to have such an act done to you but to me it is something beyond your control and I certainly would not hold it against you. But as a SO I would also not want it to hold you back from being the real you if that makes sense. And it would be your choice as to if you ever talk about it but this is a pretty big deal and it is bound to create some roadblocks inside and outside of the bedroom. But all that can be worked on......

If you are questioning yourself about bringing up the conversation then either you are not ready or you are not at a comfort level with the SO. You are in control of it no matter what. When you find that right person to fill a void in your life it will be then that you can figure out how to broach the subject. Sometimes talking in a way that someone can slowly process the information can save a bunch of drama of even mistakenly saying the wrong thing (i.e. texting or something like that.)
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Old 12-05-2012, 01:55 PM   #7
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"I am absolutely terrified of committing to be with someone who could one-day "change" into this nightmare I have manufactured in my head."


What nightmere do you have manufactured in your head? I will say that if a new girlfriend had told me that she had been raped before I would be understanding about it all ----BUT---- depending on exactly what it was she said I might very well be outta there if I felt the person had lingering emotional challenges that would be just too much baggage for me to want to deal with. You can only be so understanding in a new relationship.
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Old 12-05-2012, 02:32 PM   #8
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I would be understanding about it all ----BUT---- depending on exactly what it was she said I might very well be outta there if I felt the person had lingering emotional challenges that would be just too much baggage for me to want to deal with. You can only be so understanding in a new relationship.
I agree, and it does not reflect poorly on the exiting person either, who is merely choosing not to be a part of that emotional baggage. Any potential partner has the right to choose whether the person they are seeing is worth the investment. This is something we all do, regardless of whatever has occurred to us over the years.

I also agree with most of what's been said, in that you can't let this horrific thing define who you are or want to be now, however, it is not something you need to talk to everyone within earshot of you about, rather keep it for only those who are very close to you, and potential partners as they become closer and the relationship turns towards intimacy.
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Old 12-05-2012, 05:03 PM   #9
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Edited, not relevant.

Last edited by Rainshine : 12-05-2012 at 07:15 PM.
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Old 12-05-2012, 07:09 PM   #10
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The "nightmare" is something I've relived often, usually in my sleep but sometimes it invades my waking hours. It takes on the form of someone I know and trust, who then systematically breaks down every resistance I have, at first verbally, and eventually violently. The events differ but the pattern is pretty consistent.

This is something that usually comes up around the time we consider moving in together. I don't usually start my intro with, "Hi, I'm ____ and I'm a victim of rape." but I sometimes wonder if that would save me the trouble of dealing with it later. When I put it like that though, it sounds more like I'm just trying to run away from the commitment.

I was raised around casual sex, and I sometimes think if it wasn't for that, there might not be any sex at all. Sex in itself isn't a violent act, and I've recognized that. My difficulty is in trusting someone not to become that nightmare. It is usually worst sometime after a new commitment has started when my SO starts "expecting" things of me.
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Old 12-05-2012, 07:15 PM   #11
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Ohhh right... that's different to what I was thinking was happening, I'll edit my post.
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Old 12-05-2012, 08:10 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kikoro View Post
The "nightmare" is something I've relived often, usually in my sleep but sometimes it invades my waking hours. It takes on the form of someone I know and trust, who then systematically breaks down every resistance I have, at first verbally, and eventually violently. The events differ but the pattern is pretty consistent.

This is something that usually comes up around the time we consider moving in together. I don't usually start my intro with, "Hi, I'm ____ and I'm a victim of rape." but I sometimes wonder if that would save me the trouble of dealing with it later. When I put it like that though, it sounds more like I'm just trying to run away from the commitment.

I was raised around casual sex, and I sometimes think if it wasn't for that, there might not be any sex at all. Sex in itself isn't a violent act, and I've recognized that. My difficulty is in trusting someone not to become that nightmare. It is usually worst sometime after a new commitment has started when my SO starts "expecting" things of me.

As I stated before you have certainly went through a tragic event but it is not history and unless history was to repeat itsself in which you have a better chance at hitting the lottery you will never have this happen again. Easier said than done and none of us are in your shoes but from a logical standpoint you need to move forward honestly.

I have this life thing figured out (well, maybe not but anyways). You have one life on this earth. Not 2 but one. And you don't get to steal time and get to run the clock backwards. Do you really want to spend time beating yourself up over things that are not in your control?

I don't know you but obviously someone has had an interest in you at some level to talk about moving in together so there is something good about you Lol. Now maybe Mr. Right has not come along but if he does or you are in a relationship with him now don't let some asshole whole did this to you continue to haunt you. Pick yourself out the crowd and move forward. Find someone you really, really trust and seek advice and don't be afraid to talk about what is on your mind.

If you SO reacts different than what you expect and you are sure that it is not you unintentionally ruining a relationship you need to look for someone else. I have always said humans do not want to go through life alone and just because you had this event take place in your life does not mean you are excluded. Grab the moment, be confident in knowing what you want, and you will live a wonderful life.
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Old 12-05-2012, 09:08 PM   #13
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Originally Posted by Kikoro View Post
As someone who has been through a lot of counseling and therapy -being a victim of rape- I have been encouraged over the years by many of my therapists to talk about it as part of who I am, so that people can understand what kind of potential problems can arise in the course of an intimate relationship. While I am not scared of sex anymore, I am absolutely terrified of committing to be with someone who could one-day "change" into this nightmare I have manufactured in my head.

When I try to express this to male potential lovers, I find that it often closes them off to me, and I feel like I have given up a piece of my soul to a stranger, getting nothing in return.

On the other hand, when I talk about it with female potential lovers, I usually get a much more favorable and understanding response, but sometimes I feel like the relationship is based on pity instead of mutual interest and physical attraction.

When I don't talk about it at all, it inevitably leads down a chaotic path of mis-communication and misunderstandings.

After over ten years of therapy, my therapists have yet to help me resolve this one issue satisfactorily. If you had a partner with this kind of baggage, how would you prefer they bring it up, and would it lead to a break-up, a relationship, or an obligation to you? How do others handle it? I feel like I am doomed to a life of sex without romance now. That used to be okay with me, but as I get older, I wonder if I can keep going like this.


The issue you might be running into is that when you share it with guys They are probably finding themselves in such unfamiliar territory. They probably now wonder if they should treat you differently, they dont know if intimacy will be awkward or scary for you, are they doing the wrong things, are they viewed with disdain or suspicion as well. I agree its probably wise to discuss it with guys but when is a bit of a tough issue. To early and it is the elephant in the room, too late and its like you are hiding from it possibly and if you did earlier you might avoid problems etc.

Women are more than likely more sympathetic and are generally more understanding and obviously can relate on a female level as many have been in a situation they are not comfortable in or have felt vulnerable at one point or another.

It may be harder for you to find someone but it seems that sharing it is both helpful to you and important for any relationship you engage in. I think in the long run it may be your best approach. My guess is each time you meet some potential relationship you get a little beter at handling the issue and soon you will be able to deal with it the best vway for you. The guy who is right for you will be able to handle it in a respectful and appropriate manner. For your part you may have to help them in how you need to be treated in such that he knows what is comfortable for you.
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Old 12-05-2012, 10:56 PM   #14
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Maybe I should be focusing more on what it really means for the relationship? There is usually sex before that stage, and I don't think anyone could say I am closed off in that area. Treating me differently after I've told them isn't necessary or even desired.

All I really want is for them to be understanding if I act differently than they expect. Committing is difficult and has presented...challenges to me that don't seem to be all that common for women my age. I don't want them to think I am shutting them out, but rather I like taking a little extra time to adjust when things change between us.

What I get from my SO instead are jealousy issues (like they think I'm secretly seeing someone else and that's why I'm not adapting well) or constantly walking on eggshells, if they don't just take off outright. I feel guilty just hanging out with someone I've been intimate with before when that happens, and it starts to feel like a cage, which makes me react even more unfavorably. I think my therapists would call that a self-defeating cycle, but they've not been any help there either.
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Old 12-06-2012, 01:14 AM   #15
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I cannot claim to have gone through what you did, but I have experienced the effects up close and personal with my SO, she was the victim of incest/rape all through her formative years, and it had a major impact on our relationship,sex lives and other things (it was bad enough she had blanked it out, took some tough therapy and treatments to get it out, and the effects have taken many years to finally abate fully), so I understand how powerful it is, and yes, it is part of you.....

One thing I think that is important is to try and not see yourself as a victim, but as a survivor, and I am not saying that because I think you are wallowing in self pity, but rather a survivor is a tough person who pulls themselves up and makes it, and you have done that. I also say that because from my own experience with my spouse, when you can see yourself like that in a way it stops becoming less important, if that makes sense, and that may unblock a lot. If you see yourself as a victim, it kind of permeates your life and becomes a lot more important then it was (and please understand me, I have no intention of saying what happened wasn't a big deal, far from it, I have seen what it leaves in its wake, so I cannot minimize it), in the sense that it makes you automatically assume it is a big part of who you are, and then it becomes the focus of everything IME. From what I was exposed to, the shift in mindset seemed to make a big difference, because while what happened was no less foul, its impact shifted when that mindset change happened. For the one thing, it doesn't allow the person who experienced it to let others drown them with pity and such, and it let's them deal with others from a position of strength.

I think too it would let you speak openly and honestly, not about what happened, but about what impact it has and doesn't have. I can tell you that for me the hardest part was not knowing how to deal with this in our lives, before what had happened came out there had been severe freakouts in the many years were were together before it came out (we met when we were 19, this came out almost 15 years later), and after she worked on this using an especially deep technique called EMDR, it was a minefield because I didn't know how she would react, things I did could trigger things with the memories coming back, it was awful. Speaking only for myself, if faced with another person like my spouse, I think what would be valuable would be to know what areas might be problematic, so I wouldn't have to pussy foot around a potential minefield blind, and that would take you being able to say what those things were. If the commitment thing is an issue, if that is where this is triggered, then you both would kind of have to develop a path through the minefield, letting him know you want him/her, want to get serious, but need to figure out how.

This is where being a survivor versus a victim comes in, because someone who comes in who is in victim mode can seem like someone wanting the other person to take care of them, coddle them, basically hang on them while someone who is a survivor comes in and talks about how they can do it together as a couple, it is a position of strength (it is a bit different when you are partnered and something like this comes up or is uncovered, we see the victim mode and it is part of helping the person you love, but there also is no greater relief when it shifts and it becomes more two strong people fighting towards making things better. If I had to guess, some guys are prob turned off figuring that someone who had something like this happen is going to be a clingy, neurotic mess (lot of bad tv movies and portrayals out there don't help), and that they are going to have to do it alone. If you can switch your mindset, get yourself behind being a survivor, you can talk about the issues and this tells the guy 'hey, this isn't so bad, she seems to be getting her shit together" .....

In terms of when to talk, if the iniitial phases are not a problem, if the getting to know you/sleeping together works, then I would say it prob is important when things in your head are turning serious, where it is more then casual, that you have the talk, to let him know that this happened, you want to be honest about it, but that you also have worked on it and are surviving it and that together you think it won't be a problem or some such, again, hearing someone talk honestly about it as a survivor comes off better then in victim mode that can project images of someone needy and clingy and so forth.....

And please, please understand I am no way trying to minimize what happened to you, when I say you need to approach this as a survivor rather then a victim it isn't to denigrate the horrors or the impact, but rather to give a kind of mental shift that I think makes it easier to heal and so forth.

I will add that maybe the other issue is to find new therapist(s) if you can. Therapists are like anyone else, they may be good at some things and not others, it sounds like there are some lingering issues that they aren't able to help you address, maybe you need someone else, to deal with the practical elements of a relationship, including the question you ask, maybe there is a relationship therapist who specializes, not in dealing with the emotional trauma, as much as helping the survivors to move on and manage the going forward process. It isn't that the therapists you use aren't good, it might be what you need isn't where they are good, I wouldn't going to a therapist trained in CBT in dealing with gender issues if they weren't trained in gender stuff or had experience, I wouldn't go to a "Christian Therapist", well, for anything.....if they aren't helping you find answers, find a new therapist....

Hopefully tis rambling mess helped even a little bit, these haven't been the easier of months, and my brain is shot
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Old 12-06-2012, 01:56 AM   #16
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Hey, no walking on eggshells in your responses allowed! :P

In all seriousness, after over ten years of therapy there isn't much anyone can say about it that would bother me (short of being a totally insensitive prick about it).

I don't freak out every time I play an online game and someone says "you got raped" after a particularly embarrassing loss. Would I prefer the phrase be removed from canon gamer-speak? Yes. Will I lose sleep knowing it probably won't happen in my lifetime? Not really.

I like your suggestion. Keep the issues but attack them from a different angle.
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Old 12-06-2012, 02:13 AM   #17
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The guys who walk on eggshells around you probably don't know how to respond to it in a useful way. This tack of focusing on what it means for the relationship (that you need your freedom and 'commitment' is a bigger undertaking for you) seems like it could be useful - in that it gives your partner understanding of what is important now, and an idea of things they can do, should they feel the need to 'do something'.
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Old 12-06-2012, 02:36 AM   #18
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I guess that right there spells out one of the biggest problems M/F relationships have...my situation is just harder to grasp or empathize with.

I don't want a partner to "do something" when I tell him or her my problems. I'd venture to say that many women would agree with me here. The problem (more often) with men is, they seem to always want to "fix" problems. Maybe it scares them because its not a problem they know how to fix. Or maybe it really is just a matter of them personifying me as this needy and helpless glass doll that has to be constantly cared for or the beauty will fade away.
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Old 12-06-2012, 04:33 AM   #19
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As far as I can tell, for guys, the urge to 'do something' is a coping mechanism for them. Because there's not really a lot they can 'do' in this case (besides take a deep breath when you ask them to back off about commitment, or be careful about how/how often they express any changes they'd like to see in you) they can feel a bit lost. Telling them that you might need more patience about commitment gives them 'something to do' that might be helpful.

It might be helpful to reiterate that you're still the same person you were before, that you're a survivor, not a glass doll. It's just that you need your freedom.
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Old 12-06-2012, 09:54 AM   #20
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I've been with several women that have been through this, and from my experience there are generally two categories:

1. The girl that tells you about the experience because she wants you to know about significant, character changing events in her past. Negative experiences are a part of what makes us who we are and full disclosure helps our partner to understand us better. These girls know that. In my opinion they are generally good relationship material. She may not have completely dealt with it but it's no longer such a large part of her world view that the experience manifests itself in ways that impact those around her.

2. The girl that tells you about the experience because she requires significant emotional support. She either hasn't dealt with it emotionally or is no where near done dealing with it. I don't hang around long with these girls. It's not because they're not good people, not pretty, or anything else. The simple fact of the matter is that she's not in a healthy place emotionally and that's a really bad spot to start a relationship from. We can be friends all day but I'm not even considering a committed relationship with her.

I don't mean to over-simplify this - it's certainly a complex issue. This has been my experience and others may have had very different experiences, in fact that's very likely.

We all have baggage. If you're dealing with your issue and not imposing it on those around you, you'll come off as healthy, well adjusted, and well equipped to take on the emotional demands of a new committed relationship. Don't play the victim. When you're talking about it with your prospective partner, don't go to a dark place emotionally and speak in hushed tones as if it's some grave thing that still hangs over your head. Speak clearly and evenly and give them a reason to feel confident that you've dealt with it, or have the tools at your disposal to do so. Let them know that you're just informing them because you want them to know you better. That's healthy and normal and appropriate.

For what it's worth - and I don't mean to sound callous here - but regardless of the circumstances surrounding WHY you've been in therapy for ten years, the simple fact that you have felt that you needed therapy for the last ten years would be a relationship red flag to me. When I'm looking for a partner, I'm generally looking for someone that has their own baggage securely in hand. I work very hard to keep mine that way.

I'm sorry if I've offended anyone in any way - you said not to walk on eggshells when posting, so I didn't.
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Old 12-06-2012, 10:12 AM   #21
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Which would you be more comfortable with, honestly:

A woman who has consistently stayed in therapy for years as a venting outlet and coping mechanism, even long after her tragedy took place, or

A woman who is in and out of therapy a lot because she bottles everything up and doesn't have a healthy way to handle it until something in her life makes her explode?

I pick option 1 there...and while that may seem like a dramatic oversimplification, I am an EXTREME introvert by nature and have a lack of friendships that don't evolve into something sexual somewhere along the way. That makes it hard to find someone appropriate to help me vent other than a professional therapist. I'm not doing daily sessions or anything. Monthly is normal now and sometimes weekly when things get really bad. I'd venture a guess that people who are better at making friends confide in each other at least that often.
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Old 12-06-2012, 10:31 AM   #22
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Which would you be more comfortable with, honestly:

A woman who has consistently stayed in therapy for years as a venting outlet and coping mechanism, even long after her tragedy took place, or

A woman who is in and out of therapy a lot because she bottles everything up and doesn't have a healthy way to handle it until something in her life makes her explode?

I pick option 1 there...and while that may seem like a dramatic oversimplification, I am an EXTREME introvert by nature and have a lack of friendships that don't evolve into something sexual somewhere along the way. That makes it hard to find someone appropriate to help me vent other than a professional therapist. I'm not doing daily sessions or anything. Monthly is normal now and sometimes weekly when things get really bad. I'd venture a guess that people who are better at making friends confide in each other at least that often.
Let me preface by reiterating that I wasn't trying to be ugly or mean, I sincerely hope you didn't take offense.

A red flag doesn't break the deal. You're right, lots of people use their friends for 'talk therapy' - people are social creatures above all else. It strikes me that you may be filling that need through a professional service instead of stepping out of your comfort zone and making some new friends (which is not something that comes easily to me either - I'm also a pretty introverted person).

If it works for you, more power to you. I'm not judging you at all, just giving my opinion. I did date a girl for quite a long time (on and off for five years) that saw her therapist monthly (and like you, weekly when she was having trouble with an issue) and we had a mostly happy relationship, though I wouldn't characterize it as healthy. So the red flag, while present, didn't put the brakes on us but I do believe that she was using therapy as a crutch to circumvent dealing with some social anxieties that she had.

For what it's worth, if the two scenarios that you outlined here were my only two options, I would definately go with option 1. It's definatley more healthy to talk to a therapist regularly than to ignore the problems and not deal with them at all.
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Old 12-06-2012, 12:25 PM   #23
pimpslap
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Originally Posted by pmann View Post
For me, this kind of thing would not lead to a break up. I would never judge someone for something which they have no control. Would it be a little scary to hear? Of course. Especially if you've gotten to the point where you care about the person. A guy's natural reaction may be to handle you with kid skin gloves after hearing that, but I don't think it should be perceived as negative, necessarily.

A guy does need to understand that dating a girl who has experienced such trauma may include a different set of rules when it comes to affection or sex. I think both parties need to understand and have fair and realistic expectations.

Agreed. Over 50% of the women I have dated have been molested or raped. It does change how I approach a few things, but overall it doesn't push me away or anything.

It has only caused real problems in two relationships. One she ended up not being able to commit to one person(she had never dealt with it) and the other would have panic attacks while having sex. It happened often enough that I stopped wanting to have sex very often because I truly felt like I was causing them after a while. And I hated hurting her like that. It led to the slow decline and breakup at the end.

Last edited by pimpslap : 12-06-2012 at 12:32 PM.
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Old 12-06-2012, 05:23 PM   #24
amofiga
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<<< As someone who has been through a lot of counseling and therapy -being a victim of rape- I have been encouraged over the years by many of my therapists to talk about it as part of who I am, so that people can understand what kind of potential problems can arise in the course of an intimate relationship. While I am not scared of sex anymore, I am absolutely terrified of committing to be with someone who could one-day "change" into this nightmare I have manufactured in my head.

When I try to express this to male potential lovers, I find that it often closes them off to me, and I feel like I have given up a piece of my soul to a stranger, getting nothing in return. >>>

It is truly unfortunate that you don't get a more sympathetic understanding and response from male friends. Rape is a horrible experience. I have a friend who was raped and it is something that has stayed with her for years even though she has begun to function better.

You're correct in your perception that many men have a hard time dealing with a woman who has been raped. Unfortunately, many men still have the notion that women who are raped have "asked for it" or have somehow had some sort of weird desire to have it done or have secretly "enjoyed" it. Men do not seem to grasp the concept of being violated sexually until you make them consider the notion of being homosexually raped in something like a prision enviornment and suddenly the notion makes more sense to them.

I hope you continue to try to find a man who understands and can accept you as you are and can share the intimacy you need. Don't judge all men the same way. Good luck.
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Old 12-06-2012, 08:26 PM   #25
Kikoro
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I haven't taken any offense, monkeyman057, I just thought your response warranted a bit more explanation.

I don't think the "asking for it" mindset is so much of an issue here. It first happened when I was 12 and continued on for almost 2 years before the perpetrator, who was "babysitting" me, moved away. That tends to elicit violent reactions towards the perpetrator rather than understanding ones towards me, unfortunately.

The initial therapy started as a result of an "unexplained decline in grades" and I managed to keep my family paying for it long enough for me to get to where I could talk about it. From there it kind of became a habit, and one that seems to have done more good than harm
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