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Old 12-05-2012, 06:48 PM   #51
Stella_Omega
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Originally Posted by sr71plt View Post
And as some others have noted, it may not be needed in a particular story any more than any other preparation needs to be included (there being several of them that should be performed but that rarely are mentioned). If you just have to mention safe sex procedures in every case you have a sex scene, then, yes, I think you are being too clinical--and are just a bit too conflicted about the whole erotica thing.
Totally, that would for sure be overkill. Just like telling the reader about her blue eyes or his charming grin very single time would be overkill.
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Old 12-05-2012, 06:52 PM   #52
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Cruel2BeKind, I'm going to read it anyway but does your werewolf story have condoms? I'm desperately seeking a werewolf story with safe sex to review on my site!
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Old 12-05-2012, 06:54 PM   #53
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Originally Posted by Cruel2BKind View Post
What if they put it on in a sexy way?

In a couple of my stories, it's the partner putting on the condom. So they can tease, or make it sexier. It adds to the trust, I think.
I agree with you on that, and I don't see where you would assume that I don't also do that with my GM characters from time to time. (Hell, I have one story built around a club performance where the condoms hang on a tree and are taken off to use during the act.)

Tell, me, though. If you don't want a GM encounter to be very, very messy, the bottom has to clean himself out--very well--first--and not doing so might even compromise the use of a condom. How many of your GM characters have you had do that? Thirty? Five? None?

Or perhaps you didn't know that about GM activity.

So, I'm saying you don't have to include condoms explicitly every time--because you sure as hell don't include all the other preparations that should be done in real life every time either. To make a requirement every time is to be very, very anal retentive (and a bit blind to other things that would also need to be shown).
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Old 12-05-2012, 06:54 PM   #54
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Cruel2BeKind, I'm going to read it anyway but does your werewolf story have condoms? I'm desperately seeking a werewolf story with safe sex to review on my site!
Set in the nineteenth century I'm afraid. Condoms did exist, but they were rare, and used only by women of ill repute.
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Old 12-05-2012, 06:56 PM   #55
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I agree with you on that, and I don't see where you would assume that I don't also do that with my GM characters from time to time. (Hell, I have one story built around a club performance where the condoms hang on a tree and are taken off to use during the act.)

Tell, me, though. If you don't want a GM encounter to be very, very messy, the bottom has to clean himself out--very well--first--and not doing so might even compromise the use of a condom. How many of your GM characters have you had do that? Thirty? Five? None?

Or perhaps you didn't know that about GM activity.

So, I'm saying you don't have to include condoms explicitly every time--because you sure as hell don't include all the other preparations that should be done in real life every time either. To make a requirement every time is to be very, very anal retentive (and a bit blind to other things that would also need to be shown).
I make sure my characters are very clean before ever doing ass-to-mouth activities. I also try to work in enemas. But that's a bit different.
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Old 12-05-2012, 06:59 PM   #56
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I guess the difference is, not cleaning yourself out in real life may mean a bit of a mess but failing to use a condom often leads to catastrophic consequences. So as writers, we might feel more concerned about encouraging condom usage through our writing than cleaning out our bottoms. I mean the bottoms of our bottoms ... er.
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Old 12-05-2012, 07:00 PM   #57
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Originally Posted by Cruel2BKind View Post
Set in the nineteenth century I'm afraid. Condoms did exist, but they were rare, and used only by women of ill repute.
Oh shame. I better read it anyway just to be sure!
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Old 12-05-2012, 07:11 PM   #58
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I make sure my characters are very clean before ever doing ass-to-mouth activities. I also try to work in enemas. But that's a bit different.
I don't think you're getting it. It isn't just ass-to-mouth. It's cock in ass--more so. Or didn't you know this about real GM activity? You get shit on even a tiny cut on your leg and you might as well not have been wearing a condom.

And if I read your stories, I'll find that specified, yes? But, then, if you, in fact, put that in all of your stories, I don't want to read them--because I don't find that the least bit erotic. I usually only include it on a "first time" type story, where the bottom doesn't know what the hell he's supposed to do to be ready.
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Old 12-05-2012, 07:12 PM   #59
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I guess the difference is, not cleaning yourself out in real life may mean a bit of a mess but failing to use a condom often leads to catastrophic consequences. So as writers, we might feel more concerned about encouraging condom usage through our writing than cleaning out our bottoms. I mean the bottoms of our bottoms ... er.
See my last post response to Cruel.
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Old 12-05-2012, 07:32 PM   #60
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I have been using condoms in my Horner Springs Series, because Futter U. is supposed to be a modern school.

I even created a character who is a condom provider.
How modern is that?

Containing the spread of STD's is something that needs to be discussed so that the 'kid's' are spared a lot of pain.
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Old 12-05-2012, 08:05 PM   #61
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I don't think you're getting it. It isn't just ass-to-mouth. It's cock in ass--more so. Or didn't you know this about real GM activity? You get shit on even a tiny cut on your leg and you might as well not have been wearing a condom.

And if I read your stories, I'll find that specified, yes? But, then, if you, in fact, put that in all of your stories, I don't want to read them--because I don't find that the least bit erotic. I usually only include it on a "first time" type story, where the bottom doesn't know what the hell he's supposed to do to be ready.
Not sure if you noticed, but women have assholes too.

You don't have to keep saying 'real gm activity'

I have a feeling that you get this tremendous feeling of smug superiority over the fact that you, unlike me, can actually have gay sex.

Congratulations.

I can still write about it, I know the risks. Condom usage favors significantly higher on my list of 'things to address' than enemas and dental dams.

(Although, I may include dental dams in a new story I'm writing, not enough coverage is given to them, and I didn't know what they were til someone showed me.)

Just saying. you've written from a woman's point of view in several of your stories. Unless you stop writing as something you can never be, you shouldn't criticize me.
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Old 12-05-2012, 08:07 PM   #62
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I make sure my characters are very clean before ever doing ass-to-mouth activities. I also try to work in enemas. But that's a bit different.
Guess I'm seeing a disconnect between the claim and the delivery here. I scanned your "The Goats," which is nicely written. But it's set in a camp. You have a heterosexual couple coming out of the bushes with him buckling his belt buckle and no mention of any sort of safe sex--out there in an outdoor camp. Then you have two suck-off sessions between two guys thrown into a tent together out there in an outdoor camp. No mention of any cleaning themselves up--which would have been physically impossible under the circumstances. You do have a condom when two guys have anal sex--again in a camp tent--but no mention of any other preparation for the sex. So, I'm not seeing you being all that religious about always taking care of anything in the way of safe sex, let alone the other preparations that are done in the real world to facilitating have a comfortable time of it.
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Old 12-05-2012, 08:10 PM   #63
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Not sure if you noticed, but women have assholes too.

You don't have to keep saying 'real gm activity'
Well, of course they do. But you write GM--and we were talking about your writing--which apparently doesn't cover the full knowledge spectrum on GM, as you chose not to respond to that.

Which is all irrelevant to the point of the thread. You're claiming to be very safe-sex clinical all of the time (which I don't see in your writing) and I'm saying that erotica is fantasy and isn't a safe-sex lecture. And if it truly were, it would pretty much drive a stake through the heart of spontaneity, which is frequently a main element of the fantasy world of erotica.
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Old 12-05-2012, 08:17 PM   #64
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Well, of course they do. But you write GM--and we were talking about your writing--which apparently doesn't cover the full knowledge spectrum on GM, as you chose not to respond to that.

Which is all irrelevant to the point of the thread. You're claiming to be very safe-sex clinical all of the time (which I don't see in your writing) and I'm saying that erotica is fantasy and isn't a safe-sex lecture.
I'm not.

I try to have characters in modern settings use condoms.

I don't write them using condoms for blowjobs (except once, in my Tenderness series, when there was fear of an STD transfer) Very few couples (as far as I know), straight or gay, use protection for oral sex.

It gets to a point about realism.

Would two teenagers in lust with each other, insist on using condoms for oral sex?

No.

If one teen urged another inexperienced teen to have anal sex with him, would the unexperienced teen demand an enema?

No.

Stop treating me like an idiot, stop putting words in my mouth, stop pretending that you are the be-all end-all of writing, and the high queen of GM.
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Old 12-05-2012, 08:22 PM   #65
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I'm not.

I try to have characters in modern settings use condoms.

I don't write them using condoms for blowjobs (except once, in my Tenderness series, when there was fear of an STD transfer) Very few couples (as far as I know), straight or gay, use protection for oral sex.

It gets to a point about realism.

Would two teenagers in lust with each other, insist on using condoms for oral sex?

No.

If one teen urged another inexperienced teen to have anal sex with him, would the unexperienced teen demand an enema?

No.

Stop treating me like an idiot, stop putting words in my mouth, stop pretending that you are the be-all end-all of writing, and the high queen of GM.
I fail to see the relevance of this. Your claim was that you always had them clean up before oral sex. Can't very well do that when you've been thrown into a tent in a camp ground and held in there until after two suck-offs.

And that you always mention condoms when there's sex. The instance I read of a hetero couple coming out the bushes of the camp, giving a clear impression they had sex, didn't mention a condom that I could see.

It's just a matter of being truthful about what you claim.

And where have I said anything about being "the high queen of GM"? (This just goes with the other swiftboating lies you and your friends tell about me. I haven't posted on this forum that I'm the best at anything. This is a myth you all establish so you can take pot shots at me and puff yourselves up.) I even said your story was nicely written.

Hate isn't going to get you far in the world. Nor is pretending YOU know everything from where you sit in life.
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Old 12-05-2012, 08:44 PM   #66
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Originally Posted by Cruel2BKind View Post
I'm not.

I try to have characters in modern settings use condoms.

I don't write them using condoms for blowjobs (except once, in my Tenderness series, when there was fear of an STD transfer) Very few couples (as far as I know), straight or gay, use protection for oral sex.

It gets to a point about realism.

Would two teenagers in lust with each other, insist on using condoms for oral sex?

No.

If one teen urged another inexperienced teen to have anal sex with him, would the unexperienced teen demand an enema?

No.

Stop treating me like an idiot, stop putting words in my mouth, stop pretending that you are the be-all end-all of writing, and the high queen of GM.
You just don't want Pilot to have any fun!
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Old 12-05-2012, 08:57 PM   #67
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I think what Cruel doesn't get, is that my tweaking her always has a connection to her just having attacked me out of the blue. Perhaps when she figures that out . . .

In this case, though, what I'm working on is those claiming they always do something that they, in fact, don't always do--and that, if they always did it, they would lose just about all of the erotica value in their writing that should be there.
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Old 12-06-2012, 01:24 AM   #68
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I think what Cruel doesn't get, is that my tweaking her always has a connection to her just having attacked me out of the blue. Perhaps when she figures that out . . .

In this case, though, what I'm working on is those claiming they always do something that they, in fact, don't always do--and that, if they always did it, they would lose just about all of the erotica value in their writing that should be there.
I guess I'm wondering why you care so much about what Cruel does and does not do and say in her writing? To the point where you'd go furnish examples... what does it matter? Care about your own writing and let Cruel worry about hers.

Now, I do tend to agree with you that slavishly sticking to safe sex procedures probably wouldn't do any good to a story's pacing or mood. In the majority of my stories I just don't bother, but then, all of those are sci fi stories and I was able to handwave it all with a few mentions of "sterilization fields." Currently however, I'm writing a more contemporary story and had to train myself to mention condoms, because it felt right, and I could be succinct enough that it didn't become a detour into a lecture.

Which I guess is my point, here: do it where it fits.
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Old 12-06-2012, 01:32 AM   #69
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Unhappy

I wish this thread hadn't become a row about whether individuals do or don't write the best or the most realistic g/m or safe sex.
As sr71plt is saying, whether erotica's realistic is irrelevant so long as it's sexy. I thought it was a bit unfair to start saying Cruel2BeKind can't have the knowledge he does about g/m sex. It's easy to find out by chatting to gay guy friends, looking on the internet or even reading erotica or threads about erotica! Cruel2BeKind was defensive about this, we women who write gay erotica - usually intended for each other although happy for any gay guy to get pleasure from it too if they like their stuff a bit more romantic - can feel anxious in case we are trespassing where we oughtn't to go but if we can't write erotica freely what can we write!
I don't think Cruel2BeKind ever said she always made her characters clean up or practice safe sex, in fact she admitted she doesn't. She was just arguing, as I am, that perhaps considering putting safe sex in your story is important, not that you must always do it or the erotica police ought to put you in handcuffs (is it possible to arrange this? for a fee?)
Come on, guys, I think this is an important topic however you want to argue the case. I took up the safe sex writing because I have two dear friends who are so ill now because they didn't use condoms, because I had a student one year sobbing in my study when I asked why she got a low grade and she suddenly confessed she'd had to have an abortion but been unable to tell her family or friends or get any support and she just kept saying it was her own fault. I myself - in my monogamous committed relationship - twice fell unintentionally pregnant and then had 2 miscarriages and was so avoidably ill through them. I do research on sex and relationships education in an area of the world with one of the highest teenage pregnancy rates and I know the kids learn to put a condom on a banana but they don't learn to expect to use a condom for respectful safe sex.
I think there are really good points on both sides of the debate. It's true that it's not good writing to include safe sex in your story in a way that undermines the excitement of the story - not its realism but its capacity to convince the reader and keep them in its world. On the other hand, it's important to find ways of normalising safe sex not just for kids but for supposedly mature adults like me who really ought to know better. Is erotica writing a way in which we can do this? Not all the time but can we think about it in case it would be a good additional thing to do with erotica?
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Old 12-06-2012, 01:35 AM   #70
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I guess I'm wondering why you care so much about what Cruel does and does not do and say in her writing? To the point where you'd go furnish examples... what does it matter? Care about your own writing and let Cruel worry about hers.
I suppose I could check what other claimed "safety always in everything" posters to the thread do, but Cruel was the one I was in dialogue with. Anyone one else on the thread claiming they always go through the safety manual in their stories that you'd like me to check out?

One of my points was that if they were going to be so slavish about it, it involves a whole lot more than condoms. The stories of anyone else on the thread you think I should check out on that point? Cruel was obvious because she stuck out her chin on the point.
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Old 12-06-2012, 01:45 AM   #71
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it's important to find ways of normalising safe sex not just for kids but for supposedly mature adults like me who really ought to know better. Is erotica writing a way in which we can do this? Not all the time but can we think about it in case it would be a good additional thing to do with erotica?
I agree that this is part of the debate, but, on that, I don't accept any such community-member responsibility for such things. I write for adults who like to read erotica and porn. I place my material where only adults are supposed to read it. Beyond that, it's their responsibility to take care of themselves. That's what adults are supposed to be mature enough to do. I agree that "we are responsible for our readers" is part and parcel with the "we need to cover the health manuals in all erotica we write," but I reject both as not being my responsibility as a writer.

For the same reason, I don't take responsibility for slapping notes on the front of stories about what might disturb the sensibilities of one reader or another. I do my best to categorize and keyword them--and beyond that it's the responsibility of the readers to monitor their own reading. If they get the vapors and can't just back out of story that their sensibilities can't handle, they aren't mature enough to be reading on Literotica.
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Old 12-06-2012, 01:57 AM   #72
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That's a fair point about writing for an adult audience who are coming into our stories primarily for enjoyment not for a lecture about their behaviours.
You can check my stories for the safe sex but not for the cleaning up of bottoms! which I have never bothered with as I assume the mess might sometimes be part of the pleasure. (Yes I too have little experience of having sex as a man with men although I have enormous second hand understanding of it from gay guy pals who over the years have generously shared aspects of their lives with me in great detail!) But I don't recommend my stories to you as even the gay story is very hearts and flowers and not really meant for gay male readers. Don't go cruising my stuff and pulling my ratings even further down - they are already getting a weird mix of 5s and 2s (the 2s I assume are from men who wanted something a bit more rufty tufty, I did put the story up for Sci Fi & Fantasy but the editors popped it into Gay Male instead).
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Old 12-06-2012, 02:01 AM   #73
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I assume the mess might sometimes be part of the pleasure. (Yes I too have little experience of having sex as a man with men although I
I agree there must be readers who get off on that--but that, along with water sports, is something I couldn't bring myself to write.
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Old 12-06-2012, 02:09 AM   #74
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Different strokes for different folks!

Guys I am finding all this input really valuable in refining my thinking on the topic so I hope we can keep the thread going a bit longer. And don't forget to let me know about any of your stories I might review on my blog, either in a private message here or to my email naokosmith@hotmail.co.uk.

xxx
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Old 12-06-2012, 02:29 AM   #75
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Location: Mid-Atlantic, USA
Posts: 34,944
OK, Kurokami, I've gone back over the thread. Sorry, but I saw no other poster claiming as sweeping a story mention requirement for use of condoms and other protective means as Cruel did. So, I guess my answer has to be that I singled her out because she singled herself out. And, yes, she did exhibit incomplete knowledge of gay sex activity, even though GM is what she writes.

I'll reiterate, though, that the story of hers I reviewed looks like a real good story--it just doesn't do what she advocated all should do.
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Last edited by sr71plt : 12-06-2012 at 02:49 AM.
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