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Old 12-04-2012, 12:32 AM   #1
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More Attacks on Women's Right to Choose

http://news.yahoo.com/utah-lawmaker-...224937309.html

As far as I am concerned, a woman has an absolute right to terminate a pregnancy, and her reasons are valid, whatever they may be.
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Old 12-04-2012, 01:19 AM   #2
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Originally Posted by Boxlicker101 View Post
http://news.yahoo.com/utah-lawmaker-...224937309.html

As far as I am concerned, a woman has an absolute right to terminate a pregnancy, and her reasons are valid, whatever they may be.
Im with right to chose but carte blanche is usually not the best policy.

There are MILLIONS of little girls who never came to be in China simply because they were little girls.

Thats why there is a population imbalance. Yes the society prized the male which is why girls were passed on. Its still a sad state of affairs.

Once we start prefiguring height, hair, blue eyes and the like, things could get really dicey selection wise.
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Old 12-04-2012, 01:23 AM   #3
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Well, I'd have to agree that if a woman is going to purposely get pregnant until she gets the gender baby she wants, and aborts the ones that didn't fulfill her order, she really shouldn't be having children--or is mature enough to be having unprotected sex.

I understand the principle involved. But I don't think this is the most noble place to be setting up the battleground. I'm not that comfortable with the futuristic and morality implications of this--not that I'd introduce or support this legislation. I just wouldn't be waving any "women's rights" flags over it. That particular woman isn't anyone I'd want to champion.
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Old 12-04-2012, 01:33 AM   #4
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I think carte blanche IS the best policy. Otherwise, it's not actually "right to choose." It's something more like... "Right to choose IF your reason is on this here list of approved reasons and if it doesn't you are simply not as important as that fetus, sorry about that."
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Originally Posted by Euphony View Post
Im with right to chose but carte blanche is usually not the best policy.

There are MILLIONS of little girls who never came to be in China simply because they were little girls.

Thats why there is a population imbalance. Yes the society prized the male which is why girls were passed on. Its still a sad state of affairs.

Once we start prefiguring height, hair, blue eyes and the like, things could get really dicey selection wise.
1) Although there were millions of abortions in China, there are STILL millions of births as well. Then, now and on going.

2) Your reasoning seems to imply that those little girls regret the chance to never come to be. They don't. They don't exist in any way shape or form.

In fact they were never "little girls" in the first place, they were embryos.

So what if the population is imbalanced towards males right now? It's temporary, I assure you. Women make babies, and the babies tend towards 51% female.

3) How do you expect that we can "prefigure height, hair, blue (of course you think it has to be blue) eyes?" What tests can be developed to find those things out prebirth?

Quote:
Planned Parenthood of Utah Executive Director Karrie Galloway opposes the Orem Republican's proposed "Gender Selection Abortion Prohibition" bill.
She says she views the bill as a "solution looking for a problem" because she's unaware of any abuse concerning such abortions
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Old 12-04-2012, 02:17 AM   #5
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When will those stupid Republicans learn? This is an issue that the can no longer win on. As much as I don't like the thought of a woman having an abortion, in almost every single case, I don't have a say in what happens. (I have a little bit of a say in my daughter and my wife, not so much that I could prevent them but enough that I can be in the conversation)

I fall on the if you don't want to have a child, do everything that you can prior to having sex that you can to prevent it camp. Also, I support the use of the "morning after pill" if there was an oops.

I also fall in the I don't ever want abortions to be illegal camp as well. As that is too big of an encroachment by the government.

Oh, and for the record, after my wife and I made the decision that we had produced enough kids, I was the one that went under the knife to get sterilized.
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Old 12-04-2012, 02:37 AM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Euphony View Post
Im with right to chose but carte blanche is usually not the best policy.

There are MILLIONS of little girls who never came to be in China simply because they were little girls.

Thats why there is a population imbalance. Yes the society prized the male which is why girls were passed on. Its still a sad state of affairs.

Once we start prefiguring height, hair, blue eyes and the like, things could get really dicey selection wise.
The United States is not China. Sons are highly prized there; not even close to that much in the US. Some people MIGHT try to have one son and one daughter, and abort a fetus that does not fit this plan, but that would result in an equal number of male fetuses aborted as female.

I don't really like abortions, and I doubt anybody does. Ideally, there would never be the need for an abortion, but that point will never be reached.
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Old 12-04-2012, 03:33 AM   #7
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This isn't a women's right to choose issue as much as a 'designer baby' issue. Right now it's focused on sex. Sooner rather than later we will probably know all kinds of things about a child before it is born, including not only sex, but skin colour, hair colour, genetic defects (already available for certain things) etc. Maybe further into the future we could even tell things like height, IQ, rudimentary personality traits etc. Further still we will not only be able to know these things, but change them too. The question is really to what extent we should allow parents (okay, let's be realistic, mothers) to perform their own 'natural selection' on children according to what they perceive as 'good' and 'bad' characteristics.

You could make all kinds of arguments here, both for and against. But sticking a feminist flag in this and calling it an abuse of women's rights is kind of missing the point.

(Edit: Cliff Notes - agree with Euphony)

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Old 12-04-2012, 04:10 AM   #8
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Quote:
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This isn't a women's right to choose issue as much as a 'designer baby' issue. Right now it's focused on sex.
No-- right now it's focused on preventing abortions, and the excuse is "Someone might selectively abort based on sex." A red herring, dude. It's Utah, after all.
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Sooner rather than later we will probably know all kinds of things about a child before it is born, including not only sex, but skin colour, hair colour, genetic defects (already available for certain things) etc. Maybe further into the future we could even tell things like height, IQ, rudimentary personality traits etc. Further still we will not only be able to know these things, but change them too. The question is really to what extent we should allow parents (okay, let's be realistic, mothers) to perform their own 'natural selection' on children according to what they perceive as 'good' and 'bad' characteristics.

You could make all kinds of arguments here, both for and against. But sticking a feminist flag in this and calling it an abuse of women's rights is kind of missing the point.

(Edit: Cliff Notes - agree with Euphony)
There is no designer baby question yet, outside of science fiction. And this society does not prefer male babies over female babies. this is another attempt by the right-wing politicians in this country to prevent women from making their own reproductive choices, and yes that sure as hell is a feminist issue. It's the issue that put the final nail in the GOP coffin one month ago.

Here's a thing you need to know when talking about USA politics-- no discussion is actually about the thing that seems to be under discussion. Nothing comes without subtext.
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Old 12-04-2012, 04:50 AM   #9
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I'm still trying to figure out when the women started getting themselves pregnant? When did the other half of that baby making process lose all his say?

If you want it, we're gonna pay, but if you don't want it, we got no say at all? Feminist, or just fucking selfish? This is all getting pretty lopsided if you ask me.
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Old 12-04-2012, 07:09 AM   #10
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You know this is starting to get old.

Not the topic, the topic will always be a hot bed

But at this point everyone here as expressed their opinions and dug in.

These threads belong in the GB
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Old 12-04-2012, 11:50 AM   #11
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Originally Posted by Derroreaper View Post
I'm still trying to figure out when the women started getting themselves pregnant? When did the other half of that baby making process lose all his say?

If you want it, we're gonna pay, but if you don't want it, we got no say at all? Feminist, or just fucking selfish? This is all getting pretty lopsided if you ask me.
No say? That's a hot one. You want to talk about lopsided? Let's talk about the white men making the laws that restrict women's control over their own bodies. You fucking yutz.
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Old 12-04-2012, 12:03 PM   #12
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Originally Posted by Stella_Omega View Post
There is no designer baby question yet, outside of science fiction.
I must disagree. A few years back, I lived (or whatever) in NYC. They were paying female college students to inject themselves with hormones (I think) and then, later, they would vacuum eggs out of the same female college student (you wanna stick a vaccum cleaner hose up my what???) The much preferred female college students were tallish, blonde, blue eyed girls. (There was no direct talk of lebensborn.)
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Old 12-04-2012, 12:05 PM   #13
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Originally Posted by Derroreaper View Post
I'm still trying to figure out when the women started getting themselves pregnant? When did the other half of that baby making process lose all his say?

If you want it, we're gonna pay, but if you don't want it, we got no say at all? Feminist, or just fucking selfish? This is all getting pretty lopsided if you ask me.
You just gotta jerk your hips for ten seconds. A woman has to carry a life-threatening tumor for nine months. Of course women get the choice, devision of labor and all.
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Old 12-04-2012, 12:55 PM   #14
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Gender selective abortions=Eugenics. Sieg Heil!
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Old 12-04-2012, 01:00 PM   #15
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Gender selective abortions=Eugenics. Sieg Heil!
So, TE999, look way up the line, to the second response to this. How do you think I fit in your pat chart of what "all liberals" are/do now?
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Old 12-04-2012, 01:29 PM   #16
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Originally Posted by Derroreaper View Post
I'm still trying to figure out when the women started getting themselves pregnant? When did the other half of that baby making process lose all his say?

If you want it, we're gonna pay, but if you don't want it, we got no say at all? Feminist, or just fucking selfish? This is all getting pretty lopsided if you ask me.
If you are the guy that she trusts and listens to, you will have a say in her decision.

If she's the kind of gal that doesn't give a fuck about what you say and she doesn't trust you-- you realy wouldn't want to be tied to her for twenty years on account of you shoved a baby into her belly.

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Originally Posted by R. Richard View Post
I must disagree. A few years back, I lived (or whatever) in NYC. They were paying female college students to inject themselves with hormones (I think) and then, later, they would vacuum eggs out of the same female college student (you wanna stick a vaccum cleaner hose up my what???) The much preferred female college students were tallish, blonde, blue eyed girls. (There was no direct talk of lebensborn.)
That's not designer babies.

And egg donation is not abortion.
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Gender selective abortions=Eugenics. Sieg Heil!
No,it isn't. it has nothing to do with the "purification of a race." It has everything to do with a society's preference for one sex over the other-- and that's not a problem here in this society.

And these politicians are lying about their reasons anyway, they want to prevent women from having the choice to have abortions at all.
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Old 12-04-2012, 01:37 PM   #17
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I'm still trying to figure out when the women started getting themselves pregnant? When did the other half of that baby making process lose all his say?

If you want it, we're gonna pay, but if you don't want it, we got no say at all? Feminist, or just fucking selfish? This is all getting pretty lopsided if you ask me.
Brave position to take in view of the daggers that will come out.

I have to basically agree with this. I do think the issue, which is much more complex than this thread is going to acknowledge, is out of balance and that if the man is going to be stuck with child support when a baby issues from consensual sex, he should have equal say in whether or not a baby ensues. If all of those decisions are in the hands of the mother, I think she can jolly well take on the full support responsibility if she chooses to have the baby and was equally interested in having the consensual sex. If women want full equality (which I think they should get, but, in some matters, means they have to give up more than they've got, I think), they should get full responsibility as well as full benefit and not "I'm more equal than you are because I know just how to guilt you" status.

The argument that it's the woman who has to carry it and accept full risk for having it is a good one--but it only holds for the decision to abort it, not to carrying it full term by only their decision and then turning around the telling the sperm donor that he has to pay for it and also, by the way, has no rights in either raising it or that it exists at all.

If it was consensual sex, it wasn't just the man's decision to have it--the current legal set up pretty much buys into the age-old myth that only men want sex and woman only want it to keep a provider providing for them.

I really do think that feminists want to hold all of the cards in this issue--and pretty much do--and a lot of the complaining that they don't just covers up the power position they actually have. Yes, we had a lot of dumb white men politicians saying ludicrous things about these issues in the last election. Did anyone notice that they all lost their elections?

And just because some white man has put this proposal on the legislative docket doesn't mean it will pass. I wouldn't support it, but the idea of ordering up a perfect baby and just aborting anything that doesn't completely suit you is appalling to me. The issues are complex and this isn't all about the selfish designer fetish rights of the mother, who, I think, if she is willing to abort until she gets the gender she wants, isn't mature enough to be raising children anyway.
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Old 12-04-2012, 01:55 PM   #18
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I only accept abortion if it's necessary for the woman's health.

Other than that, it is why there are the pill, condoms, diaphragms, and spermicides available.

EOD for me.
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Old 12-04-2012, 02:09 PM   #19
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JUST IN CASE another man is getting upset about the hypothetical woman that he knocks up-- is she someone he actually wants to be tied to for the next twenty years? Because there isn't only a baby, there's a mother.

If this hypothetical woman can completely ignore a man's wishes regarding this potential new life that they have inadvertently created-- if he means that little to her-- then think about how difficult his own life is going to be like, tied to hers.

A woman who has an abortion just because she wants to-- for any reason-- is a woman who is not fit to be a mother at this time. Self defining.

Most women don't want to make a decision like that alone. If a man and a woman love each other, if she feels that he will be there for her and the child, if he is someone she wants to be with for more than one fuck-- she will listen to him. He will have a say in her choice.
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Old 12-04-2012, 02:12 PM   #20
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You guys who are getting upset about the hypothetical woman that you knock up-- is she someone you actually want to be tied to for the next twenty years? Because there isn't only a baby, there's a mother.

If this hypothetical woman can completely ignore your wishes regarding this potential new life that you two have created-- if you mean that little to her-- then think about how difficult your own life is going to be like, tied to hers.

A woman who has an abortion just because she wants to-- for any reason-- is a woman who is not fit to be a mother at this time. Self defining.

Most women don't want to make a decision like that alone. If a man and a woman love each other, if she feels that he will be there for her and the child, if he is someone she wants to be with for more than one fuck-- she will listen to him. He will have a say in her choice.
Stella, if I don't want to be a father, I'll use a good condom that won't break (or I'll get sterilized).

Simple as that.

Now who's being stupid? Certainly not me.
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Old 12-04-2012, 02:16 PM   #21
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Stay on topic, Stella. This thread is about aborting until you get the gender you want. It's not about a guy knocking a woman up (and there's that age-old biased myth again--why is it a guy knocking a woman up rather than a woman being horny and laying a man?).
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Old 12-04-2012, 02:52 PM   #22
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Here's a thing you need to know when talking about USA politics-- no discussion is actually about the thing that seems to be under discussion. Nothing comes without subtext.
I'm not remotely interested in your retarded politics. I am interested in the issue that crosses nationalities and concerns the moral dilemma of the rights a women (or man) should have to determine whether or not to terminate a pregnancy based on characteristics the baby may possess.
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Old 12-04-2012, 03:37 PM   #23
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I'm not remotely interested in your retarded politics. I am interested in the issue that crosses nationalities and concerns the moral dilemma of the rights a women (or man) should have to determine whether or not to terminate a pregnancy based on characteristics the baby may possess.
"retarded politics" is about the best description I have ever heard!

But this news item is about USA retarded politics. It's not about moral dilemmas.
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Old 12-04-2012, 04:03 PM   #24
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You guys who are getting upset about the hypothetical woman that you knock up-- is she someone you actually want to be tied to for the next twenty years? Because there isn't only a baby, there's a mother.

If this hypothetical woman can completely ignore your wishes regarding this potential new life that you two have created-- if you mean that little to her-- then think about how difficult your own life is going to be like, tied to hers.

A woman who has an abortion just because she wants to-- for any reason-- is a woman who is not fit to be a mother at this time. Self defining.

Most women don't want to make a decision like that alone. If a man and a woman love each other, if she feels that he will be there for her and the child, if he is someone she wants to be with for more than one fuck-- she will listen to him. He will have a say in her choice.
Stella, me deareo,
I feel you could be dipping your oh-so-delicate toe into a vat of 'Ooh Nasty'.

I was about to reply, but I feel that it's not quite on the original subject.
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Old 12-04-2012, 04:38 PM   #25
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Yeah, definitely running off to an off-point battleground she enjoys more--and pretending that it was something "us guys" said. That's pretty much her debate style.
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