Old 10-22-2012, 10:03 AM   #26
twelveoone
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The Waste Land only makes sense if you understand Pound's influence on it, to see it, you will have to get the Facsimile and Transcript version by Harvest to see what was cut, this new beginning was a transition from a rather banal opening to another section, rather banal. Eliot tried (in my opinion) to make the transition lamer for the sake of dynamics. (and do a little experimentation)
Later isolated lines, can only be understood in the context of the "imagist" philosophy.
By these lines becoming the opener, well it changed everything.

It is also curious to note, that this was not footnoted.
part of the idea may have come from whitman
WHEN lilacs last in the door-yard bloom’d,
And the great star early droop’d in the western sky in the night,
I mourn’d—and yet shall mourn with ever-returning spring.

at least the association with death in April and lilacs.

anyway, great work of art, helped along by the fact that you can get so many readings from it, even if as ol' Tom claimed it was just a personal grouse.
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Old 10-22-2012, 10:26 AM   #27
twelveoone
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btw, except for the echoing of the sonnet and a few other minor details, most of these ideas are not mine. whadda you want footnotes?
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Old 10-22-2012, 04:52 PM   #28
twelveoone
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above eliot, is also an example of positional positioning, in changed when it lead off
also an example situational positioning, published in 1922, groundwork for acceptance already begun about 20 years earlier, but still radical after all these years, maybe that's why he buried the sonnet - ha, ha, i know what i'm doing, in your face
i know we are conditioned to think of St. Tom as being beyond that, but he wasn't

now the really important question

tuber or not tuber
,
always ask for a side of why's
like what is this supposed to do?
like where did this come from?

and read, and read carefully there is always more, more, more

one exception, NEVER ask me if i have a mfa,
i already answered it
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Old 10-22-2012, 06:29 PM   #29
Angeline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by twelveoone View Post
btw, except for the echoing of the sonnet and a few other minor details, most of these ideas are not mine. whadda you want footnotes?
I once had an annotated copy of The Wasteland. You know the one I mean? With Eliot's revisions based on Pound's critique? It's probably still in print. Wish I had it now because I know it would make a lot more sense to me.

But overall I think Eliot's examples are a great place to learn that "free verse" does not mean "unplanned verse." These are very carefully crafted lines where each part of speech, each sound, and the combinations of the same (which may seem artless to a reader) are not only planned, but toiled over and meticulously placed.

The first thing is to recognize that "free verse" is not the opposite of "rhymed" or "metered." It can (and often does) do both. But that--one rhymes, the other doesn't--is the level of awareness the average reader brings to a poem, imho.
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Old 10-22-2012, 10:35 PM   #30
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I once had an annotated copy of The Wasteland. You know the one I mean? With Eliot's revisions based on Pound's critique? It's probably still in print. Wish I had it now because I know it would make a lot more sense to me.

But overall I think Eliot's examples are a great place to learn that "free verse" does not mean "unplanned verse." These are very carefully crafted lines where each part of speech, each sound, and the combinations of the same (which may seem artless to a reader) are not only planned, but toiled over and meticulously placed.

The first thing is to recognize that "free verse" is not the opposite of "rhymed" or "metered." It can (and often does) do both. But that--one rhymes, the other doesn't--is the level of awareness the average reader brings to a poem, imho.
to be honest i don't like the term "verse", free or otherwise. most of the poets here that i liked in the past were non-metrist. unconcerned with form. it is impossible to do some of the things fridayam, annaswirls, etc. in a metrical formal setting, and honestly the best piece of advice i've heard came from you, i'm paraphrasing "if it sounds right, write it" - i jazzed it up a little.
formalism, meter it is not a determiner of good poetry, less so now that it has ever been.
the perception of poetry by the average person is end rhyme. the average person does not read poetry.
among "poets" the sonnet impresses. i've read about 1,000, liked 5 maybe another 15 i feel i should be terrified of (mostly Frost, but he didn't follow the 'rules'), never met a villanelle i liked. most of the effort goes into the bricks and the shell. it's the things inside that pump the blood.
and it really dismays me sometimes when i here about 3,000 years of western civilization and we arrive at a poem about some bimbo drumming her fingers.
i'm sure the real Sappho didn't use the 3,000 year thing. sheesh she probably made up her form.

It is this contrast between fixity and flux, this unperceived evasion of monotony, which is the very life of verse. - Eliot
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Old 10-22-2012, 11:14 PM   #31
Angeline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by twelveoone View Post
to be honest i don't like the term "verse", free or otherwise. most of the poets here that i liked in the past were non-metrist. unconcerned with form. it is impossible to do some of the things fridayam, annaswirls, etc. in a metrical formal setting, and honestly the best piece of advice i've heard came from you, i'm paraphrasing "if it sounds right, write it" - i jazzed it up a little.
formalism, meter it is not a determiner of good poetry, less so now that it has ever been.
the perception of poetry by the average person is end rhyme. the average person does not read poetry.
among "poets" the sonnet impresses. i've read about 1,000, liked 5 maybe another 15 i feel i should be terrified of (mostly Frost, but he didn't follow the 'rules'), never met a villanelle i liked. most of the effort goes into the bricks and the shell. it's the things inside that pump the blood.
and it really dismays me sometimes when i here about 3,000 years of western civilization and we arrive at a poem about some bimbo drumming her fingers.
i'm sure the real Sappho didn't use the 3,000 year thing. sheesh she probably made up her form.

It is this contrast between fixity and flux, this unperceived evasion of monotony, which is the very life of verse. - Eliot

I don't think we disagree. I'm just saying, look at Ted Berrigan's sonnets, for example. They don't rhyme, they don't have a metrical plan but if you read how he constructed them, he might as well have been writing a sestina. I think it takes a certain level of reader understanding to recognize that free verse (or whatever you choose to call it) is not just someone's stream of consciousness experience. Maybe the first draft was, but the best poets I know pick and choose very carefully before they hit a submit button, so to speak.

I start with what feels right, but somewhere between what feels right and what makes sense is where my poem ends up.
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Old 02-19-2014, 07:34 PM   #32
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so far beyond what little intellect I have but hopefully osmosis works a little, bumped for tsotha
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