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The appeal of punishment?

It varies, but I would suggest IMHO 50 Shades is probably not a reliable source of BDSM....of course, as I have learned, this is subjective and not the way all here see the book or it's content so take it as you see it for you.

As to punishment and why someone might enjoy it...IME this is not typical. From the pyl's position, though they may enjoy a particular activity when it is meant to be enjoyed, they usually will feel very differently when it is done for punishment. Personally, pain inflicted for good times does not hurt the same as that same level and type of pain given as punishment. It also is not enjoyable because it means the pyl has displeased the PYL.

The PYL often also does not enjoy giving the punishment, for much the same reason...even if at other times it is a favourite. That being said, there can be times when the PYL does become aroused for a number of reasons. If the PYL is into dacryphilia, the tears which may come from the pyl may result in the PYL's enjoyment. They can also enjoy it because it reinforces the control they have over the pyl. For the most part though, most I have known have not enjoyed giving punishment.

Catalina:rose:
 
As far as erotic punishment goes I enjoy the power and the whole dynamic of it, the visuals and the sound, etc... but also--and primarily--I enjoy seeing the effect it has on my partner. That's what the main thing is for me. Pain and pleasure and punishment can create very powerful emotional connections.
 
ownedsubgal said:
if you are talking about actual punishment, and not "funishment," where mutual pleasure/excitement is the basis of it all, then it is enjoyable for neither the receiver nor giver. for the Dominant it is a time of disappointment above all else. with many there is also frustration at lessons yet unlearned by the submissive, and yes sometimes even anger if in the infraction involved actual disobedience. it is not a fun, sexy, happy time for anyone.

but it is a mutual cleansing, a wiping the state clean and starting fresh kind of thing. but punishment is one of those things that if you don't get it, you just don't get it.
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I liked this description. One way to look at it, least as how I do, is that BD/SM and D/s are too totally different things that can come together. In BD/SM, a 'punishment', despite its name, is a mutually enjoyable thing....example: "Oh, you have misbehaved, my pet, your shoes have a 4.5" heel, I told you they should be 4.55", so I will have to punish you, bend over and count"....it is 'play punishment', and simply is for the enjoyment of both the top/bottom, Dominant/submissive.

In a D/s ownedsubgal hit a home run, it is about some violation of the rules, something the sub has done that is was negotiated in the relationship, with the 'punishment' fitting the 'crime'. It is much like the punishment you give a child when they do something they are not supposed to, it is both a deterrent and in many ways, it is cathartic, it cleans the slate.

In 50 shades of gray it is not clear whether or not Christian enjoys the punishment portion. Stella is correct, what is in 50 shades that Christian does with his subs is more D/s, he controls their lives and the punishment is not play (though he does in fact have play in there as well, he spanks and such for pleasure, too, which would be more BD/SM'ish). Some dominants in D/s do enjoy punishment, which generally is beyond what the sub finds pleasurable (and not all punishments are pain play; how about bobbing for fake bacon bits in the toilet (not with pee present) or shoving a piece of gum up the bum for talking back, while riding in the car....), someone who is a 'sadist' (I hate the term, but it is one most people recognize, but the quotes) where they don't care if the sub enjoys it or not, they do, while others do it simply to enforce discipline and the bond between them and don't enjoy, much as many parents don't enjoy punishing their kids (wish it was all parents).

That kind of punishment is not abuse, if it is within bounds of what the dom and sub agreed to when entering the relationship. One of the key things of any such relationship is that there is (I hope) a tacit agreement that no real harm will be done; but if a dominant punishes the sub and for example, the sub needs to go to the hospital because of nasty wounds or a broken bone, that would be abuse, as would be literally beating them up. A sub signs on to follow the rules of the dominant, it is the nature of D/s, and as long as it is SSC it is within the scope. Psychological harm is also part of it, I am claustrophobic, and if a dominant to punish me locked me in a footlocker or put me in a dark closet or put me in a total hood with no light, blocked my hearing and tied me up, it would be abuse because that is a hard limit even in play, because it could cause me to go literally off the deep end.....
 
catalina_francisco said:
It varies, but I would suggest IMHO 50 Shades is probably not a reliable source of BDSM....of course, as I have learned, this is subjective and not the way all here see the book or it's content so take it as you see it for you.

As to punishment and why someone might enjoy it...IME this is not typical. From the pyl's position, though they may enjoy a particular activity when it is meant to be enjoyed, they usually will feel very differently when it is done for punishment. Personally, pain inflicted for good times does not hurt the same as that same level and type of pain given as punishment. It also is not enjoyable because it means the pyl has displeased the PYL.

The PYL often also does not enjoy giving the punishment, for much the same reason...even if at other times it is a favourite. That being said, there can be times when the PYL does become aroused for a number of reasons. If the PYL is into dacryphilia, the tears which may come from the pyl may result in the PYL's enjoyment. They can also enjoy it because it reinforces the control they have over the pyl. For the most part though, most I have known have not enjoyed giving punishment.

Catalina:rose:
Click to expand...

Nicely put, Catalina, context is important as well. Getting 10 strokes from a cane in play will be transmuted into pleasure by a sub in one way or the other, 10 strokes given because you know you broke the law will hurt because feeling badly about breaking a rule, your mind prob will not allow it to be transmuted to pleasure.
 
subwannabe said:
I'm in kind of a quandry with my wife. I have spanked or "punished" her before on occasion and she has done it to me also. It is more play related than actual punishment. Neither one of us has done it for a while. She recently read "Fifty Shades of Grey" and it has got her thinking about it again for herself. I haven't done it with her much in quite a while because I'm pretty sure she wants me to spank her as a punishment for something, such as spending too much money. That is my quandry. I don't really want her to spend too much money or engage in other similar types of behaviors that I don't really want her to and if I spank her for it, it would actually encourage her to engage in those types of behaviors more and more so that she can get "punished". So, I have basically been avoiding going down this road and really don't know what to do. Maybe the answer is to "reward" her for good behavior by spanking her but this seems to be contrary to the whole idea of spanking for punishment and she wouldn't want to be spanked hard enough to be a real punishment that would be strong enough to actually discourage the behavior she had engaged in. Somehow I find myself between a rock and a hard place.
Any ideas?
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What you are talking about is a SAM, aka smart assed masochist, who does something outside the rules to get 'punished'. If you were really going to punish your wife for spending too much money, then you would need to spank her beyond that which she enjoys it. SAM behavior is annoying, because it is topping from the bottom at its worst......and D's I know would respond to such behavior and punish them by not playing with them, or banishing them if not lifestyle, or otherwise make clear they won't tolerate that.

If you are going to use punishment in a D/s, the point of the punishment is not pleasure, it is to guide and yes, it is also cathartic. If you guys are into a D/s, then the fact that she has disappointed you would be part of the picture of correction, but the other half would be in corrective behavior she knows is. It all depends on the people and their relationship, in my case my D showing disappointment and anger was punishment enough, and she would also call a time out on things I liked to do, it would be a 'freeze out' where she was still my lady but in a sense I wasn't worth of being her sub...then after that, there would be some sort of cathartic action to rebond over, it would generally be something I disliked (and often I disliked but she liked, not not always), and would clear the pitch so to speak.
 
BiBunny said:
I don't do the punishment thing, but I didn't realize we'd all suddenly been granted the authority to decide who's in abusive relationships and who isn't now. :rolleyes:
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While I didn't like the tone of the poster I think you are referring to, who said that punishment that is non consensual is abuse, and if it is consensual I don't recommend it, there is a way to judge abuse or not in these kind of relationships, and it is about consensuality. I agree that outsiders judging it is a tricky business, there are people out there, right and left, who claim that BD/SM or D/s is abuse by its very nature because people cannot consent to that kind of thing, but that is rubbish. However, there is a fine line between consent and non consent and between BD/SM and abuse, and talking broadly (not in terms of any thing in this thread or board), there are times when people should be judging others relationships and questioning it, because the kind of power in these kind of relationships makes it very easy to be truly abusive, and yes, I have seen and heard of genuine cases where it went over the line. An obvious one is where a sub is literally beaten up, with horrible bruising and broken bones, or where the dominant totally isolates them from outside people, family and friends, or for example was ordering them to do things like take up smoking or doing drugs that they otherwise wouldn't be doing. Obviously extreme cases, but abuse can and does happen.......This would be true in non BD/SM relationships, how many times do we read about where a spouse is being beaten, isolated from friends and family, and no one does anything until it is too late?

That doesn't mean I think anyone has the right to say "anyone in a D/s is in an abusive relationship' or 'punisment=abuse', just saying that there are times when red flags should go up, where 'that is their business' doesn't apply:)
 
njlauren said:
While I didn't like the tone of the poster I think you are referring to, who said that punishment that is non consensual is abuse, and if it is consensual I don't recommend it, there is a way to judge abuse or not in these kind of relationships, and it is about consensuality. I agree that outsiders judging it is a tricky business, there are people out there, right and left, who claim that BD/SM or D/s is abuse by its very nature because people cannot consent to that kind of thing, but that is rubbish. However, there is a fine line between consent and non consent and between BD/SM and abuse, and talking broadly (not in terms of any thing in this thread or board), there are times when people should be judging others relationships and questioning it, because the kind of power in these kind of relationships makes it very easy to be truly abusive, and yes, I have seen and heard of genuine cases where it went over the line. An obvious one is where a sub is literally beaten up, with horrible bruising and broken bones, or where the dominant totally isolates them from outside people, family and friends, or for example was ordering them to do things like take up smoking or doing drugs that they otherwise wouldn't be doing. Obviously extreme cases, but abuse can and does happen.......This would be true in non BD/SM relationships, how many times do we read about where a spouse is being beaten, isolated from friends and family, and no one does anything until it is too late?

That doesn't mean I think anyone has the right to say "anyone in a D/s is in an abusive relationship' or 'punisment=abuse', just saying that there are times when red flags should go up, where 'that is their business' doesn't apply:)
Click to expand...

*Nods* I get what you're saying.

See, I'm just annoyed with a lot of the "decree on high" shit we've been seeing lately (and not just in this thread), which I don't think is what you're talking about. "If you don't do it my way, you're abusive, blah, blah, blah." Nope, if folks are grown and they made their choice to be in that relationship, then (general) you don't get to decide if it's abusive or not.
 
njlauren said:
While I didn't like the tone of the poster I think you are referring to, who said that punishment that is non consensual is abuse, and if it is consensual I don't recommend it, there is a way to judge abuse or not in these kind of relationships, and it is about consensuality.
Click to expand...

BiBunny said:
See, I'm just annoyed with a lot of the "decree on high" shit we've been seeing lately (and not just in this thread), which I don't think is what you're talking about. "If you don't do it my way, you're abusive, blah, blah, blah." Nope, if folks are grown and they made their choice to be in that relationship, then (general) you don't get to decide if it's abusive or not.
Click to expand...

Yes, this is why I specifically said that nonconsensual punishment is abuse. If two people choose to involve punishment in their relationship, then that's not nonconsensual and I'm not calling it abuse.

I do reserve the right to say "do not recommend", but that's a very different type of judgement. "I think you may regret that", not "that's morally wrong".
 
Bramblethorn said:
Yes, this is why I specifically said that nonconsensual punishment is abuse. If two people choose to involve punishment in their relationship, then that's not nonconsensual and I'm not calling it abuse.

I do reserve the right to say "do not recommend", but that's a very different type of judgement. "I think you may regret that", not "that's morally wrong".
Click to expand...

Wasn't so much you I meant, dear. :rose:

My question is, why do these types of people think others give a shit about what some outsider thinks of their relationship?
 
BiBunny said:
I don't do the punishment thing, but I didn't realize we'd all suddenly been granted the authority to decide who's in abusive relationships and who isn't now. :rolleyes:
Click to expand...

BiBunny, I'm sorry if you thought I was passing judgement on anyone or saying that anyone's relationship is abusive. I just meant that in my head, "I" can't seem to separate the two but that's just a personal thing for me. I came here to get opinions from people who actually know what they're talking about, not to judge anyone.
 
Netzach said:
Catharsis.

If you're dealing with people who carry guilt around very well, it's a way to release some of that guilt.
Click to expand...

Ahh ok, that makes a lot of sense and helps me understand it from the point of view of the receiver of the punishment. That's also hard for me to get because I've always reacted badly to punishment. Even as a child, when punished I would run right out and do whatever I was being punished for again just to prove that no one was going to stop me from doing what I wanted to do. I drove my parents crazy!
 
catalina_francisco said:
It varies, but I would suggest IMHO 50 Shades is probably not a reliable source of BDSM....
Click to expand...

I totally get this and that's why I came here to find out the real deal. It's not the best book in the world but it has gotten me curious about some things.

[/QUOTE] The PYL often also does not enjoy giving the punishment, for much the same reason...even if at other times it is a favourite. That being said, there can be times when the PYL does become aroused for a number of reasons. If the PYL is into dacryphilia, the tears which may come from the pyl may result in the PYL's enjoyment. They can also enjoy it because it reinforces the control they have over the pyl. For the most part though, most I have known have not enjoyed giving punishment. Catalina:rose:[/QUOTE]

The idea that the person giving punishment may not enjoy it never even occurred to me but it makes sense now that you say it. When it's part of "funishment" as others here call it I see that it's fun on both sides but as a true punishment it may not be enjoyable by either side. Thank you for this perspective.
 
njlauren said:
I liked this description. One way to look at it, least as how I do, is that BD/SM and D/s are too totally different things that can come together. In BD/SM, a 'punishment', despite its name, is a mutually enjoyable thing....example: "Oh, you have misbehaved, my pet, your shoes have a 4.5" heel, I told you they should be 4.55", so I will have to punish you, bend over and count"....it is 'play punishment', and simply is for the enjoyment of both the top/bottom, Dominant/submissive.

In a D/s ownedsubgal hit a home run, it is about some violation of the rules, something the sub has done that is was negotiated in the relationship, with the 'punishment' fitting the 'crime'. It is much like the punishment you give a child when they do something they are not supposed to, it is both a deterrent and in many ways, it is cathartic, it cleans the slate.

In 50 shades of gray it is not clear whether or not Christian enjoys the punishment portion. Stella is correct, what is in 50 shades that Christian does with his subs is more D/s, he controls their lives and the punishment is not play (though he does in fact have play in there as well, he spanks and such for pleasure, too, which would be more BD/SM'ish). Some dominants in D/s do enjoy punishment, which generally is beyond what the sub finds pleasurable (and not all punishments are pain play; how about bobbing for fake bacon bits in the toilet (not with pee present) or shoving a piece of gum up the bum for talking back, while riding in the car....), someone who is a 'sadist' (I hate the term, but it is one most people recognize, but the quotes) where they don't care if the sub enjoys it or not, they do, while others do it simply to enforce discipline and the bond between them and don't enjoy, much as many parents don't enjoy punishing their kids (wish it was all parents).

That kind of punishment is not abuse, if it is within bounds of what the dom and sub agreed to when entering the relationship. One of the key things of any such relationship is that there is (I hope) a tacit agreement that no real harm will be done; but if a dominant punishes the sub and for example, the sub needs to go to the hospital because of nasty wounds or a broken bone, that would be abuse, as would be literally beating them up. A sub signs on to follow the rules of the dominant, it is the nature of D/s, and as long as it is SSC it is within the scope. Psychological harm is also part of it, I am claustrophobic, and if a dominant to punish me locked me in a footlocker or put me in a dark closet or put me in a total hood with no light, blocked my hearing and tied me up, it would be abuse because that is a hard limit even in play, because it could cause me to go literally off the deep end.....
Click to expand...

njlauren, I think your posts have been the most helpful of all. I don't believe I'll ever be able to enjoy true punishment from either side but everyone's posts have helped me understand the motivations behind it a lot better.
 
njlauren said:
One of the key things of any such relationship is that there is (I hope) a tacit agreement that no real harm will be done; but if a dominant punishes the sub and for example, the sub needs to go to the hospital because of nasty wounds or a broken bone, that would be abuse, as would be literally beating them up. A sub signs on to follow the rules of the dominant, it is the nature of D/s, and as long as it is SSC it is within the scope.
Click to expand...

i liked much of what you had to say njlauren, but on this portion i have to strongly disagree. it really need go no further than consent. that is to say, that if there is mutual consent by both parties, even if that consent was a one-time giving of self as would apply with a slave, and there is no harm to any outside the relationship, that is enough. there need not be any boundaries.

believe it or not there are people who do consent to actual abuse, as in those things which will cause real physical, emotional, or psychological harm. as a slave i consented to being someone's property, and that means accepting whatever it is he may give. i am at times "literally beat up," there have been broken bones in the past, black eyes a few times, etc. and much more significant than anything physical, certain actions and realizations have more than once driven me to the brink of insanity and beyond. but that is okay. i consented to slavery, and a slave gives up those boundaries.

also realize that many of us do not believe in or follow the edict of "SSC," and that is okay too. you really just need the C, and that one can be fuzzy.
 
ownedsubgal said:
i liked much of what you had to say njlauren, but on this portion i have to strongly disagree. it really need go no further than consent. that is to say, that if there is mutual consent by both parties, even if that consent was a one-time giving of self as would apply with a slave, and there is no harm to any outside the relationship, that is enough. there need not be any boundaries.

believe it or not there are people who do consent to actual abuse, as in those things which will cause real physical, emotional, or psychological harm. as a slave i consented to being someone's property, and that means accepting whatever it is he may give. i am at times "literally beat up," there have been broken bones in the past, black eyes a few times, etc. and much more significant than anything physical, certain actions and realizations have more than once driven me to the brink of insanity and beyond. but that is okay. i consented to slavery, and a slave gives up those boundaries.

also realize that many of us do not believe in or follow the edict of "SSC," and that is okay too. you really just need the C, and that one can be fuzzy.
Click to expand...
\

I cannot agree to that, a human being has the right to at least one basic thing, self preservation, and quite honestly I don't think a human being can consent to give that up and over the years, now pushing 30, I have known a lot of people in D/s relationships , including those who take it quite seriously, 24/7 TPE's that are as stringent as anything you can imagine and I don't think they would agree to that level. People have the right to lead their lives as they see fit, but when it comes to the kind of things you are talking about, I don't agree people can consent to overriding their self preservation, and I think a dominant who would go to that level has issues, to be able to take it that far. If I had a friend who was into D/s and I saw the kind of things you are talking about, I would intervene, and I am generally someone who doesn't spook easily, and I also would have more then a few things to say to the dominant who quite frankly I would wonder about; even looking at a slave as a piece of property, I would be upset if I saw someone abusing a dog or a pet (and they are considered property). I am sure some would say by what right do I have to judge or step in, and it would be the same thing if I saw a husband who was beating up his wife but she refused to press charges, I don't think someone can consent to that.

You may think it is me judging someone else's life, but maybe because I have seen real abuse, maybe because I know what kind of sick fucks are out there, I don't think that consent can go into the realm of affecting self preservation. This isn't about play styles, this isn't about what is 'authentic' or not, this is about where human life has to outweigh issues like self actualization or the right to live 'as we choose' or consent. Yes it can be a slippery slope, there are those who would claim that about someone simply into getting flogged, but there has to be a point where things fall into an area of no go, and for me this is one of those.

Obviously you live you life the way you do and I cannot change that, nor would I since I don't know all the details and I don't know you IRL and I can only hope that in your world, that you find what you need and that you aren't harmed, but I reserve the right to disagree strongly.
 
amiboo said:
njlauren, I think your posts have been the most helpful of all. I don't believe I'll ever be able to enjoy true punishment from either side but everyone's posts have helped me understand the motivations behind it a lot better.
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\\

No reason you should, true punishment is in the realm of something you are not into, that's all. I also know people in D/s relationships where they handle transgressions in a different way, that make the point without it being 'punishment':).
 
amiboo said:
I totally get this and that's why I came here to find out the real deal. It's not the best book in the world but it has gotten me curious about some things.
Click to expand...


I get that this book might have inspired curiosity, especially with the amount of hype surrounding it, and the feelings it has aroused in some who have read it. When seeking more information, coming to places like here and other sources of reference such as you have, gives you a wider, and more realistic picture of how fluid and different the situations can be depending on those involved and the dynamics they have embraced. My advice for anyone who wants to go further and actually have BDSM and D/s become part of their lives is to read, listen and explore, then when you have reached a place which you are comfortable with and suits you and those you are in a relationship with, do it as it suits you, not by what others may tell you is correct, the 'right way', or acceptable. My guage is and always has been to know we are happy, not whether anyone else approves....also helps we live our lives quietly and privately (though there are people in our lives who are not BDSM but who know the dynamics) so do not have to deal so much with approval or disapproval on a regular basis.

Catalina:rose:
 
Abuse is subjective, and it is all too easily thrown around when discussing BDSM and the activites involved. I can relate to ownedsubgal's escription of her M/s relationship as we also entered into a TPE 24/7 M/s relationship 10 years ago. For some it is about agreeing, then having a say on everything they will and will not do, and that is fine for them, but for others TPE means you give that consent once hence it is called Total Power Exchange and not Temporary and Negotiable Power Exchange.

I also become edgy when I hear people talk about stepping in when they decide someone is in an abusive relationship. The intention may be good, but for those who are in a seriously abusive relationship (not consensual), an outsider deciding for them and attempting to rescue or intervene can do more harm than good. Worst case scenario is people can end up dead, including the person supposedly being rescued, their children, the rescuer....it can also result in the abused defending the abuser and closing ranks, thus isolating them even further; their being further abused; and a multitude of other legal or social problems just to name a few of the risks. Having worked professionally in the field you get to see and hear some fairly horrific details but number one rule was always to leave any decisions and choices solely in the hands of the abused, not assume we knew best and act on it. Sometimes attempting to or leaving can be the last mistake an abused person makes....and they usually know best if they are in that deadly situation.

Catalina:rose:
 
njlauren,

you can disagree however strongly with my (or anyone's) way of life, but you cannot decide what is right or wrong for another adult person, nor can you rightfully claim that certain ways and beliefs are outside the bounds of D/s or M/s lifestyle when in fact they are as true to the literal meaning of those terms as possible.

this is when those who focus solely on fun and games, erotic fun, or even just the concept of mutual happiness 24/7 (an impossibility, btw), become puzzled, defensive and often angry. for some of us the decision to submit to another person was not made because it turns us on...the decision to belong to another person was not made because it filled us with the warm sexy fuzzies. it's the realities of everyday life, in service to another, that appealed to us. and life is very often not fun or sexy.

you speak of self-preservation...do you realize that submission is itself a form of self-preservation? that it is the reason many women in truly abusive nonconsensual relationships live and manage to function through 20 years of abuse but cannot make it 48 hrs without being killed once they (or some outside "helpful" force) decide to free themselves?? submission can be a way of moderating a threatening entity. they will continue to hurt you, yes, but you are unable to provoke sufficient rage within them for them to take it over the edge. Catalina is absolutely right when she speaks of the dangers of intervening in such relationships. it is a well known fact that most women who end up dead at the hands of their abusive partners are killed while in the process of leaving or soon after they have left. this does not mean that a woman should stay in such a relationship forever, it simply means that the decision to leave should not be taken lightly, and each step must be taken thoughtfully.

but let's get back to the topic at hand...because the lifestyle is not about nonconsensual relationships. despite whatever you or others may believe, one can consent to slavery. and as Catalina put it so well, it is not "Temporary and Negotiable Power Exchange." it is total because it is just that. when i first made the decision to hand myself over to him 12 yrs ago, i had no idea how the journey would unfold. i could not have imagined the joys, the sorrow, the growth, the suffering. i did not know that after 2 yrs i would experience broken ribs, and after 9 yrs a broken heart. and you know what? taking all i now know, all i have lived, going back in time when that decision to be owned or not was still before me....i would have done it all over again. no hesitation.

it is the only way of life i would ever choose. :rose:

(and thank goodness those like yourself lack the power to choose for me.)
 
njlauren said:
I would be upset if I saw someone abusing a dog or a pet (and they are considered property). I am sure some would say by what right do I have to judge or step in, and it would be the same thing if I saw a husband who was beating up his wife but she refused to press charges, I don't think someone can consent to that.
Click to expand...
I don't define abuse by the absence of consent. Nor do I define it by the behavior itself, and certainly not by whatever labels a person affixes to their relationship.

I define abuse by the effect on the victim. Anyone who causes material and sustained physical or emotional harm to another human being is engaging in abusive, and therefore fundamentally unethical, behavior - even if the abused person consents to it.

Standing by and letting the abuse happen isn't as despicable as engaging in abuse directly. However, I agree with you that failure to intervene when one could help the victim is unethical too.

But that italicized phrase is a tough one.
 
JMohegan said:
Standing by and letting the abuse happen isn't as despicable as engaging in abuse directly. However, I agree with you that failure to intervene when one could help the victim is unethical too.

But that italicized phrase is a tough one.
Click to expand...

And how would you feel, or explain/rationalise your decision to intervene to the grieving family of an abuse victim 'you decided' needed your intervention and ended up dead because of it? Do you think sleeping at night would be easy for you after that?

Catalina:rose:
 
catalina_francisco said:
And how would you feel, or explain/rationalise your decision to intervene to the grieving family of an abuse victim 'you decided' needed your intervention and ended up dead because of it? Do you think sleeping at night would be easy for you after that?

Catalina:rose:
Click to expand...

You seem to be ignoring his italicised words and his own comment on them.
 
ownedsubgal said:
(and thank goodness those like yourself lack the power to choose for me.)
Click to expand...
Not one person here has ever even implied that they would. Sure people question you, because they care. But once you've answered they never question your choices again.

And considering some of the things you've said you believe, I have to thank goodness that you have no power to choose for the vast majority of people. What you think is right-- not just for yourself, but for all women? I would kill someone, or myself. Yes indeed.
 
JMohegan said:
Indeed.
Click to expand...

Apologies, but even that can be subjective to interpretation on a screen, and does still come down to your decision as to when for you it would be OK from my interpretation...sorry if that is not how you meant it.:rose:

Catalina
 
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