Laurel is considering a bisexual category!

[BTTap]

FWIW-I also think some LW stories which feature bi-males/bi-sub-males might gravitate to a Bi-Sex Male category, which would please several commentors/trolls there (not sure which way that cuts with the powers that be, however).

[BTTap]

Laurel's concern, expressed in her PM, was story placement.
I don't see it as a new concern. Most stories could be in at least 2 categories. I read a lot of LW stories-the voluntary cuckold (esp. bi-male) could be in Fetish, often Groupsex, sometimes BDSM, perhaps even Ex/Voy (watch and wack-off). Almost by definition, Groupsex could be in Lesb and/or Gay, or at least EC. Depending upon the nature of the encounter, almost every category contains some First Time material.
Bi-Sex seems to have a distinctive theme (same-sex curiosity/threesomes) that lends itself to its own category.

[3113]

Originally Posted by BTTap

I think Stella is not entirely correct when she says the action is what matters. In a pure stroke story, that may be the case. But, in a more emotional, dramatic story, the themes of reluctance, curiosity, discovery, etc., are very different. In other words, the "theme" is essential; and the theme of a FFM story and a MMF story are very different.

That may be true, but anyone looking for such stories in a bisexual category is likely to (1) check the tag to see if it's the type of story they're after (i.e.: "I'm a bi-woman and I want a tender romance of such a woman discovering her bi side...") and/or (2) will probably not take it out on the writer if said writer give them a scene with an extra penis because they're reading the story for thematic content, not for stroke.

This as compared to those looking for pure stroke and, thus, likely to rudely (and undeservedly) slap down a good story for ruining their stroke with that extra penis.

If one is judging a story by way of theme, by way of a character's reluctance, curiosity, discovery, then one is going to judge the story on that, not on the gender combination in the sex scene. Yes?

[Stella_Omega]

Originally Posted by BTTap

I think Stella is not entirely correct when she says the action is what matters. In a pure stroke story, that may be the case. But, in a more emotional, dramatic story, the themes of reluctance, curiosity, discovery, etc., are very different. In other words, the "theme" is essential; and the theme of a FFM story and a MMF story are very different.

Aren't you the guy who just said, in another thread that you hate it when extra dicks pop up in a story?

In which case, the theme wouldn't matter a hill of beans to you. Right?

[BTTap]

Originally Posted by 3113

That may be true, but anyone looking for such stories in a bisexual category is likely to (1) check the tag to see if it's the type of story they're after (i.e.: "I'm a bi-woman and I want a tender romance of such a woman discovering her bi side...") and/or (2) will probably not take it out on the writer if said writer give them a scene with an extra penis because they're reading the story for thematic content, not for stroke.

This as compared to those looking for pure stroke and, thus, likely to rudely (and undeservedly) slap down a good story for ruining their stroke with that extra penis.

If one is judging a story by way of theme, by way of a character's reluctance, curiosity, discovery, then one is going to judge the story on that, not on the gender combination in the sex scene. Yes?

I may not have been clear. In a stroke story, the extra cock would bug me. In a thinker/emotion piece, I am not totally adverse to a male character wrestling with his bi-side, but I'm not really looking for that, either (Brokeback was very good and all, but still...not my cup of tea generally). However, a heretofore hetero gal feeling the pull of puss, or a lesbi-leaning gal gravitating to cock, is more interesting to me, plus a lot more sexy. So, either way, I would prefer 2 separate categories.
But, like I said, either way I would like to see the category/categories created.

[BTTap]

Originally Posted by Stella_Omega

Aren't you the guy who just said, in another thread that you hate it when extra dicks pop up in a story?

In which case, the theme wouldn't matter a hill of beans to you. Right?

I painted myself into a corner, I guess. For the record, whatever type of story we're dealing with, I typically don't want to be metaphorically slapped in the face with a random hard-on (or literally, for that matter).
My point was that story that is ABOUT (caps for emphasis!) a girl discovering her bi-side (for example), may only have FF sex in it, but that doesn't mean it need (or should) be in Lesb. If the theme is her emerging BI-sexuality (as opposed to emerging/heretofore closeted lesbianism), then it seems to me it should be in the prospective Bi-Sex (or Bi-Sex F) category.
Stella-I would really appreciate it if you would quit nit-picking my nit-picking.

[LaSalia]

The Group Sex category is challenging because it's broad enough you never know what you're going to get. And if we, the authors, want to write a story where the main character has sex with a man in one scene, and later on (you know how long some of these stories are...) with a woman, it might put off some of the readers, and lower the voting. Choosing categories for your story are already difficult, adding more categories, I think, would help a lot in making sure the right audience gets to appreciate our work.

[Stella_Omega]

Originally Posted by BTTap

I painted myself into a corner, I guess. For the record, whatever type of story we're dealing with, I typically don't want to be metaphorically slapped in the face with a random hard-on (or literally, for that matter).
My point was that story that is ABOUT (caps for emphasis!) a girl discovering her bi-side (for example), may only have FF sex in it, but that doesn't mean it need (or should) be in Lesb. If the theme is her emerging BI-sexuality (as opposed to emerging/heretofore closeted lesbianism), then it seems to me it should be in the prospective Bi-Sex (or Bi-Sex F) category.
Stella-I would really appreciate it if you would quit nit-picking my nit-picking.

I guess that would be up to the writer? And let the readers develop the expectations for the cat, -- as, ghawdnose, they have done in LW.

[Vioan]

I'm very much against this, as it would simply be redundant.

[Neonurotic]

Originally Posted by Boxlicker101

I like the idea of a bisexual category, but only one. I believe there aren't enough stories with male bisexuals to make a separate category worthwhile. I also want to point out that not all group sex stories involve bisexuals.

That's because the bi guys who write make their stories fully gay and have the girl as a voyeur to not offend anyone. I've changed a few stories to fit that censorship for that reason. However, I'd love to include MMF in a bi story the way I originally intended. There are lots of male bisexual writers who do the same. Also, there are quite a lot of bisexual male readers who would rather read MMF stories then just the gay category.

So ya, I vote a bisexual category, but I'd like there to be some kind of identifier for MMF or FFM stories, not necessarily 2 new story categories.

[3113]

Originally Posted by BTTap

However, a heretofore hetero gal feeling the pull of puss, or a lesbi-leaning gal gravitating to cock, is more interesting to me, plus a lot more sexy.

Which I'm sure you could easily find both in Lesbian (no guy involved) or group, guy involved. In fact, I'm sure there are dozens such stories in those categories right now that you can indulge in and satisfy both forebrain and hind. Hence, you don't need yet ANOTHER category for that which turns you on, thematically or stroke, in Bisexual. Two categories already exist here on Lit to satisfy your yearnings for women lusting after pussy or cock--no men lusting for cock invited. But if you DID feel that such would only turn up in bisexual, are you saying that you wouldn't glance at all at the tag to make sure you were getting your FF or MFF rather than MMF?

Any way you slice it, stroke or theme, your argument for two categories is unconvincing.

[Boxlicker101]

Originally Posted by Neonurotic

That's because the bi guys who write make their stories fully gay and have the girl as a voyeur to not offend anyone. I've changed a few stories to fit that censorship for that reason. However, I'd love to include MMF in a bi story the way I originally intended. There are lots of male bisexual writers who do the same. Also, there are quite a lot of bisexual male readers who would rather read MMF stories then just the gay category.

So ya, I vote a bisexual category, but I'd like there to be some kind of identifier for MMF or FFM stories, not necessarily 2 new story categories.

I have never written a group sex story involving gay sex, but I do have one in progress. If I ever finish it, I might be the first person to post to the new category.

The closest I have come is a threesome with a bi man, me and a t-girl. I know full well the t-girl is a woman, and I have never called her anything else, but she does still have male equipment, and she and the bi-man 69. I think that one is in the TS/CD category.

[Stella_Omega]

The reason I voted for one category is that Bisexual might mean a foursome or moresome. Not everything fits neatly into mmf and ffm.
In my tags, I would say: MM AND FF

[grdas]

I'm leaning towards one category. Yeah, having separate categories for FFM and MMF would make it easier to get to exactly the sort of bisexual story I'm in the mood for, and indeed that lack of organization is what makes Group Sex kind of a pain to wade through for some ball-touching, but I think there's a very real difference between the appeal of breaking the status quo by having sex with a bunch of people at once and breaking the status quo by having sex with someone of your own gender, and even if we're not breaking those down even further, it'll still be easier to get to the taboos we want. Also, methinks that the homophobic downvoters with rage-priapisms will stay the shit away from a category called Bixsexual.

[BTTap]

Originally Posted by 3113

Which I'm sure you could easily find both in Lesbian (no guy involved) or group, guy involved. In fact, I'm sure there are dozens such stories in those categories right now that you can indulge in and satisfy both forebrain and hind. Hence, you don't need yet ANOTHER category for that which turns you on, thematically or stroke, in Bisexual. Two categories already exist here on Lit to satisfy your yearnings for women lusting after pussy or cock--no men lusting for cock invited. But if you DID feel that such would only turn up in bisexual, are you saying that you wouldn't glance at all at the tag to make sure you were getting your FF or MFF rather than MMF?

Any way you slice it, stroke or theme, your argument for two categories is unconvincing.

Sounds like you are arguing against a BiSex category at all. Obviously, you can find a FFM (or FF, but with a bi-sex theme, or FFFM, or FFMM (but no sword crossing), etc., etc.) in Lesb, Group, and other categories (including LW, and any number of others). So, why have a BiSex category at all?
To me, it is to have a specific area to find stories about same-sex AND opposite-sex relations. No other category is dedicated to it; and, as others have pointed out, some categories that seem like they might be accepting of it find hostile readerships. In any event, I don't mean to suggest that there are no BiSex Female stories to be found on this site: of course there are. But, there is no "home" for them. It's all about convenience, and finding the target readership (or the target readership finding the author).

So, I think a BiSex category is appropriate. Why 2 categories (one for BiSex Male and one for BiSex Female)? For ease, in part. You're right, though-a quick check of a story tag could take care of it, usually. Maybe another reason is the same reason that you don't lump in Lesbian with Gay Male. Sure, you could have a Homosexual category, and have them all together, and then refer readers to the tags to figure out which type it is. But, FF stories are very different from MM stories. So are BiSex F and BiSex M. At some level, don't both deserve their own category? Why just a generic catch-all?
Stella makes the strongest point for one BiSex category, imho: the BiSex category may not only be FFM or MMF. It may also be about a BiSex Female and a BiSex Male and their adventures together, or any other possible combination. So, separate categories would almost necessitate a third category: BiSex Female AND Male. Then, we are splitting hairs. So, maybe a general BiSex category is just easier (and more likely to get created?).
Appreciate the thoughts, 3113. Not convinced by your argument, but maybe rethinking 2 categories based upon Stella's observation.

[Stella_Omega]

FF stories are very different from MM stories

*is diverted*

What makes them so different?

[BTTap]

Originally Posted by Stella_Omega

*is diverted*

What makes them so different?

How to answer?
Obvious: One has 2 women, one has 2 men.
Sarcastic: If you can't figure that much out on your own, then not knowing the answer to that question is the least of your worries.
Marketing: At least 90% of their respective readerships (conservative estimate).
Mechanical: One has slot A and slot B; the other has tab A and tab B.
Emotional: How can you even ASK that? (running off crying)
Vaguely Spiritual: Something about ying and ying, yang and yang. Oh, yeah: and shockra's.
Hypocritically Homophobic: FF is hot; MM is disgusting.
Religious: Nothing, they're all going to hell.
I could go on and on......

[Allyourbase]

Yay! A bi story section!

I get what Laurel is saying. But story placement will always be a kind of paper-scissors-rock kind of game. Bi trumps lesbian/gay, BDSM will trump both, trans* probably trumps all of that, noncon trumps that again, incest trumps all of the before. Or whatever. I'm a deviant, so whatdoiknow.

It's just a matter of trying to figure out who will protest most vehemently when offended. And a clear story description line or tagging for those who don't have a big mouth. Compassionate tagging, peoples! It's for the underdog!

I wonder, btw... I read two different expectations in this thread. Either that bi male stories will go there predominantly (because straight men fear cock and gay men fear pussy, I guess), or that there are not enough bi male stories (because straight men fear cock and gay men fear pussy?). Apparently, bi females are less of a problem when they pop up anywhere else, because... I dunno, lesbians don't shout loud enough? Straight women don't mind pussy? (Men don't mind?) It kinda makes me think of the skewed crossdressing/trans section: full of MtF (who date men), almost no FtM (dating whoever) to be found.

Men. I like them. I actually really, really like them. I like them so much I want to look like them. But it feels like we're tiptoeing around them sometimes.

[Stella_Omega]

Oh, I don't think we've done much tiptoeing.

[Allyourbase]

Originally Posted by Stella_Omega

Oh, I don't think we've done much tiptoeing.

Oh, I'm pretty sure I wasn't thinking of you.

But of this:

Most of the readers here don't mind reading about two women getting it on in Group Sex category-- it's reading about two men that drives the homophobic readers apeshit.

Many writers have stories they won't post here because of that horrible reaction.

I kind of read 'homophobic men' there, in stead of 'homophobic readers' which might not be accurate. Apparently I have some prejudice there.

[Stella_Omega]

Well, I know for a fact that there are at least two women on the site who are as violently homophobic as any man-- so I said "readers"

[Allyourbase]

Originally Posted by Stella_Omega

Well, I know for a fact that there are at least two women on the site who are as violently homophobic as any man-- so I said "readers"

Point taken.

And then there's heterophobic... readers.

Sounds like biphobics of any gender might be as happy with the new category as bi writers.

[Stella_Omega]

Originally Posted by Allyourbase

Point taken.

And then there's heterophobic... readers.

Sounds like biphobics of any gender might be as happy with the new category as bi writers.

yes, I will not post stories about bisexual women in Lesbian. But my women are so damn queer, they don't appeal to the general run of readers here.

It's all going to forbidden fiction, I do believe.

[Kurokami]

Originally Posted by Stella_Omega

yes, I will not post stories about bisexual women in Lesbian. But my women are so damn queer, they don't appeal to the general run of readers here.

It's all going to forbidden fiction, I do believe.

Seriously, this is why we need a specific category for genderqueers and others. Something like an "uhh..." category, or maybe just "???"

[Stella_Omega]

Originally Posted by Kurokami

Seriously, this is why we need a specific category for genderqueers and others. Something like an "uhh..." category, or maybe just "???"

let's get one thing done at a time.