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Old 01-12-2011, 02:13 PM   #26
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Originally Posted by xssve View Post
Yet the empirical fact remains that a woman is much less likely to be raped by a man who masturbates than one who doesn't - one cannot decouple a sexual act from sexual desire, that's pure abstraction.

i.e., males attempt to exert control over women in many other ways, rape is only one of them, and it would be somewhat delusional to attempt to argue that a sexual crime has no sexual motive.
What, exactly, is the correlation between rape and masturbation? One is about sadism and the other is wanking.
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Old 01-12-2011, 02:13 PM   #27
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According to your story.
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Old 01-12-2011, 02:14 PM   #28
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We aren't talking about rape, we're talking about homoeroticism - heterosexual rape is still heterosexual and "masculine".
No. We were talking bout male fantasies and how there are constrained by behavioral expectations. Raping/dominating a woman is a common male fantasy, is it not? They why is rape so widely practiced and other things are not if behavioral constraints are in place?


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And, rape itself seems to be pretty contingent on what other outlets are available for male sexual energy - i.e., if masturbation is frowned upon, and/or social sex with willing partners is discouraged, punished, or simply unavailable, the rape rate will almost axiomatically rise.

And not just for the sexual outlet, being sexually active is very much tied in with notions of masculine behavior, "boys will be boys", etc. - a 40 year old virgin female is a tragic waste, a 40 year old virgin male is a farce, and an object of derision - hell, a 21 year old male virgin is a joke.
So are you justifying rape as an acceptable outlet, within "behavioral constraints"????


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Speaking form experience or what? That's a political construct, but yes, no need to shout, the compulsion to control ones environment, including proximal females, is typically masculine behavior, feminine behavior is typically characterized as passive, although that too is a construct.

As noted in the violent rhetoric thread, people often try to live up to these constructs in order to gain acceptance, often to pathological degrees.

Here, for instance, you are doing your damndest to mount me metaphorically, in order to control your environment and demonstrate your masculinity to any proximal females through this display, like any average primate.

Again, the subject is homoeroticism, not rape, that's a different subject, except as it relates to the masculine construct.
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Yes from experience as a cop and if you had done any research on the subject you would know it's not about sexual release, but control of the victim and with that control comes a sexual release.

A political construct? You've got to be kidding. So you are a convicted rapist then? Only someone who has been convicted or accused would believe that rape is a political construct.

As a normal hetero male I feel no need to control the female of the species, so I don't know where you're getting you cockeyed view. I could care less what the female species does.
xssve: Face it, he wants you dude. Sounds like "Mr. Big Bad Cop" has a rape/domination fetish of his own. Rape isn't strictly hetero, you know!
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Old 01-12-2011, 02:27 PM   #29
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You're changing the subject - I'm not talking about behavioral constraints in general, I was talking about very specific behavioral restraints w/respect to gender identity - "tightly controlled masculinity" as a blog to that effect called it - sorry, lost the link, google only turns up scholarly papers on the subject.

But, what I'm saying, is that in this case behavioral pattern of sexually dominating females is one of the behavioral constraints - constraints aren't always about discouraging certain things, they can also be about encouraging others, i.e., athletic ability and sports, drinking, fast cars or big trucks, guns, violence in general, etc., and male sexual dominance is certainly one of those things - being called "pussywhipped" is not a compliment, so even if you are, you have to pretend you're not, and that goes straight back to the masculine identity construct - "nice guys finish last", etc., and that doesn't refer who orgasms first.

Cops are all about control of course.

Anyway, on that subject, before the thread goes even further off course, how about date rape?

Insofar as it's about "control", it would seem it's mostly about getting a piece of ass without having to pay the price.
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Old 01-12-2011, 02:38 PM   #30
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How much of the rage of the Radical Salfists you like to rant about is tied to their fear of female empowerment do you think Zeb?

Again, it's part of their religion, just like it is in Christianity - most of Sharia is about maintaining control over female sexuality, the rest is window dressing.
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Old 01-12-2011, 03:28 PM   #31
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Anyway, my original point was simply: Amy can go out in public in pair of jeans nobody is going to blink - JBJ wears his dress in public and he's gonna get his ass kicked.
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Old 01-12-2011, 03:37 PM   #32
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Originally Posted by xssve View Post
Anyway, my original point was simply: Amy can go out in public in pair of jeans nobody is going to blink - JBJ wears his dress in public and he's gonna get his ass kicked.
But if I wear my power suit into an office building, I'd hear murmurs of "ball buster" and "dyke" in my wake.

On the other hand, if I borrow JBJs dress (which probably would be size 20 AND 20 years out of fashion) I'd be completely discounted by most of the men who would be thinking about how to get the dress off of me as opposed to paying any attention to what I might say.
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Old 01-12-2011, 03:49 PM   #33
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But if I wear my power suit into an office building, I'd hear murmurs of "ball buster" and "dyke" in my wake.

On the other hand, if I borrow JBJs dress (which probably would be size 20 AND 20 years out of fashion) I'd be completely discounted by most of the men who would be thinking about how to get the dress off of me as opposed to paying any attention to what I might say.
Yes, of course. Men are just hard-ons with eyes and ears. And you inspire unrestrainable horniness with your clothes.
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Old 01-12-2011, 03:49 PM   #34
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I cant imagine straight men fantasizing about other men. I mean, if you like Chevys do you fantasize about Fords? Of course not.
This has to be the most homo-erotic post you ever made.
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Old 01-12-2011, 04:01 PM   #35
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Yes, of course. Men are just hard-ons with eyes and ears. And you inspire unrestrainable horniness with your clothes.
Wow. Way to take a comment out of context. Good job. Maybe you and JBJ should get together.
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Old 01-12-2011, 06:01 PM   #36
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But if I wear my power suit into an office building, I'd hear murmurs of "ball buster" and "dyke" in my wake.

On the other hand, if I borrow JBJs dress (which probably would be size 20 AND 20 years out of fashion) I'd be completely discounted by most of the men who would be thinking about how to get the dress off of me as opposed to paying any attention to what I might say.
20 years ago absolutely, but there has been some water gone under the bridge since then.
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Old 01-13-2011, 03:53 AM   #37
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xssve: Face it, he wants you dude. Sounds like "Mr. Big Bad Cop" has a rape/domination fetish of his own. Rape isn't strictly hetero, you know!
Hardly.

I do, but we are talking about hetero males and rape.
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Old 01-13-2011, 12:12 PM   #38
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No, actually we're talking about the masculinity construct, and the sense of entitlement that seems go along with that, that often leads to rape.

As I've noted before, persecution of male homosexuals is often based on the perception that they are acting feminine, in fact you don't even have to be gay to experience this, and in the larger sense, this is practically indistinguishable from outright misogyny - i.e., the behavior being targeted is femininity, its just more acceptable to assault a man than it is a woman.

Thus, a "real man", who is rightly inhibited about assaulting a woman, nevertheless feels free to assault a man he perceives as being feminine, i.e., gay men serve as proxy targets for suppressed rage against women, which actually makes being gay sound kind of noble, albeit, for the most part, it's likely largely a form of cortical chimerism.

But, women do tend to hang with gay men, and part of that may be that they get the protection of males without all the pawing and heavy breathing, in a sense, they are true gentlemen, without all the often equally obnoxious pedestalizing and inhibitions about pure and sacred femininity, that bugs a lot of women, i.e., they can be themselves, women, without having to maintain the whole sugar and spice feminine front that most het males insist upon.

A lot of women fantasize about male homosexual sex - when I worked at a XXX video store, the lesbians were always renting all male gay porn - and another part of that may be that they're able indulge in voyeurism without becoming the target, as they would likely be among straight men.
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Old 01-13-2011, 03:36 PM   #39
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Old 01-14-2011, 09:41 AM   #40
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Lol, that's you baby - look at the title of the thread, the word rape is not in there, not in the OP either.

Amy mistook the term "behavioral constraints" as referring to restrained behavior, when in fact, it often entails the opposite, a lack of restraint when it comes to certain things, like keeping women "in line".

Less than Thirty years ago, any unescorted woman was basically fair game, and it's practically impossible to determine when that particular ethic got it's start, human history doesn't go back that far.
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Old 01-15-2011, 07:45 AM   #41
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i.e., males attempt to exert control over women in many other ways, rape is only one of them, and it would be somewhat delusional to attempt to argue that a sexual crime has no sexual motive.
I absolutely agree with that. There is NO way that you are gonna convince me, no matter how many time people repeat it that rape is not AT ALL about sex. It IS sex, so it's about sex.

Control- yes. But sex too.
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Old 01-15-2011, 07:48 AM   #42
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As the OP i have to point out that rape is NOT what this thread was about.
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Old 02-08-2011, 02:56 PM   #43
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Old 02-08-2011, 04:35 PM   #44
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You know what I wish? That people would stop trying to put themselves and others into boxes.

Why does it matter what people like or are turned on by, as long as it doesn't harm anybody else?

Fuck. Love. Play. Enjoy life. Feel good. That's all that matters. I refuse to be defined by someone else's labels.


((I also wish I knew why my user picture isn't showing up on the left, but that's a separate issue.))
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Old 02-08-2011, 04:48 PM   #45
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((I also wish I knew why my user picture isn't showing up on the left, but that's a separate issue.))
Because you haven't made enough posts for it to show up. I don't remember how many you have to make, but you're nowhere close yet.
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Old 02-08-2011, 07:03 PM   #46
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You know what I wish? That people would stop trying to put themselves and others into boxes.

Why does it matter what people like or are turned on by, as long as it doesn't harm anybody else?

Fuck. Love. Play. Enjoy life. Feel good. That's all that matters. I refuse to be defined by someone else's labels.


((I also wish I knew why my user picture isn't showing up on the left, but that's a separate issue.))
We all wish that.

And we all wonder that. And we all would like to refuse other peoples labels.

And your userpic will show after 150 posts, If I recall correctly
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Old 02-08-2011, 07:59 PM   #47
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Old 02-08-2011, 09:46 PM   #48
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Thus, a "real man", who is rightly inhibited about assaulting a woman, nevertheless feels free to assault a man he perceives as being feminine, i.e., gay men serve as proxy targets for suppressed rage against women
You're quite right in your observations, but I'm not sure that gay men serve as proxy targets for suppressed rage against women (I mean this generally. Obviously there have always been and always will be men who have suppressed rage against women and take it out this way. But most men who have rage against women, suppressed or not, take it out on women, not gay men. They may not actually hit women, but a man need not strike a woman to express his misogyny).

I think that the rage against feminine male is due to femininity being infantilized. It isn't respected as being indicative of a mature human being. Masculinity fills that role. The masculine male is perceived as the epitome of adulthood. The feminine woman is perceived as being an infant (frivolous, helpless, cute, pretty, in need of protection, etc.).

When we want to view others as inferior (and ourselves as superior) we tend to make those others child-like and ourselves adult-like. Thus, the King and Queen are father and mother of their subjects, who are children and need to obey. The church elders are parents to their parishioners--the leaders even called "fathers" and "mothers." Politicians may view the public as wanting to be told what to do, and a conquering nation or empire might view the subject people as childlike and in need of guidance.

Of course, not all those on the "infant" side mind being there. The one in power, the "adult" is also the one who has to be responsible. In the best of such situations, the "child" is made much of, doesn't have to worry "her pretty little head" about paying bills, about unpleasantness, about doing anything but being fussed over. Some people want to be told who to vote for or what rules to follow in order to be moral, or, in time of war, who to shoot.

When groups separate into adult/infant, however, certain behaviors, dress, etc. get codified as belonging to one or the other group. So the wearing of a frilly, pretty dress is codified as "infant" because it belongs to the "infant" (female) group. And wearing trousers and such belong to the "adult" group. A man can wear a dress for comedic effect, as many men have. But if a man wears a dress seriously, then he's saying that men are a joke, that they are infants, not respected adults.

And I think that is what enrages other men against that man. That he is insulting the group by infantilizing it. He is threatening its claim to superiority and the rights it has over other groups in being the adult. He is undermining their status, and not showing their group the respect they feel it deserves as the "adult."

Historically, women wearing pants ran into just as much trouble (read up on bloomers) as men wearing dresses--but adults can understand a child wanting to dress like an adult or pretending to be an adult; obviously, those lower down respect and admire those higher up and want to be like them. What they can't abide is an adult dressing like a child--or acting like a child, wanting to demean themselves and, in demeaning themselves, demeaning the group they belong to. Which is why, I think, gay men who come across as feminine often face so much rage from other men. They may not be a threat to the patriarchal status quo, but they are, I believe, seen that way.
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Old 02-08-2011, 10:49 PM   #49
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Interesting point, 3113. I'm not sure I agree or not, though. I can see the "adult"/"infantalized adult" dichotomy, but I think it's more born out of maintaining a power structure for those particular "adult" people than it is about gender. Those patriarchal roles are just a tool to justify taking responsibility from another person, and I see them in many relationships, gay and straight. The attitude ranges from benign or helpful, all the way to controlling and abusive. The controllers and abusers always try to justify their actions by saying they're trying to help their victims.

Homophobic violence, I think, arises more from internal conflicts, at least with men. It isn't men on the Opposite-attraction end of the spectrum who act out homophobic; rather, it's those with some same-sex attraction. As you (3113) say, those men with anger towards women usually find a target. Those men with anger towards themselves find a target that looks like that which they hate about themselves.
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Old 02-08-2011, 11:28 PM   #50
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And I think that is what enrages other men against that man. That he is insulting the group by infantilizing it. He is threatening its claim to superiority and the rights it has over other groups in being the adult. He is undermining their status, and not showing their group the respect they feel it deserves as the "adult."
I'd have to agree with you this is a large part of it, it actually encompasses misogyny as well, there is definitely an adult/child dynamic mixed up with the man/woman dynamic in many cases - the two probably feed off each other in some sort of unwholesome synergy.

It was seldom noted that when adolescent/adolescent violence was at it's peak in the Eighties. and everybody was panicking about it, it was still only a fraction of the adult on child violence, which rose exponentially by comparison.

My cyber sweetie is into the daddy dom thing, I'm not entirely comfortable with it, even though I'm sure she's probably more mature than I am, but I've seen it work, it just clearly has a darkside.

It's amazing how something so simple, sex, can be so damn complicated.
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"You elect doofuses, you get to live in doofus-land. That's how things work".

-- dr_mabeuse

“Capital must protect itself in every way… Debts must be collected and loans and mortgages foreclosed as soon as possible. When through a process of law the common people have lost their homes, they will be more tractable and more easily governed by the strong arm of the law applied by the central power of leading financiers. People without homes will not quarrel with their leaders. This is well known among our principle men now engaged in forming an imperialism of capitalism to govern the world. By dividing the people we can get them to expend their energies in fighting over questions of no importance to us except as teachers of the common herd.” - JP Morgan
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