Old 04-16-2010, 05:04 PM   #101
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the alternative?

you sin, you repent, you ask for forgiveness and make changes in your behavior; you're forgiven. you sin again, inevitably.

sounds like the human process. it's found throughout xianity-- notably, the evangelicals. what's the alternative.? sin, despair, go to hell?
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Old 04-16-2010, 05:09 PM   #102
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you sin, you repent, you ask for forgiveness and make changes in your behavior; you're forgiven. you sin again, inevitably.

sounds like the human process. it's found throughout xianity-- notably, the evangelicals. what's the alternative.? sin, despair, go to hell?
Quite obviously the Catholic Church didn't require the "change your behavior" step. It's unsupportable to say they did from the volume of reported and documented instances that they didn't. And transferring them to another parish don't do the job.

It's probably a pretty good thing to have in the human process, but this whole decades and decades of stuff on this in the Catholic priesthood is evidence enough to me that they didn't/don't include that step. (which makes your post irrelevant to the point, I think.)
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Old 04-16-2010, 05:52 PM   #103
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I married a Catholic and have witnessed the lack of the step required to change behavior. No need when you can just be forgiven of all your sins on your deathbed and go straight to heaven as sinless. Strange thinking at best.

The alternative to repentance is to make a mistake, learn from it and go on without Heaven or Hell in the picture.
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Old 04-16-2010, 06:04 PM   #104
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note

pure: //you sin, you repent, you ask for forgiveness and make changes in your behavior; you're forgiven. you sin again, inevitably.

sounds like the human process. it's found throughout xianity-- notably, the evangelicals. what's the alternative.? sin, despair, go to hell?//

sr71 Quite obviously the Catholic Church didn't require the "change your behavior" step. It's unsupportable to say they did from the volume of reported and documented instances that they didn't. And transferring them to another parish don't do the job.

It's probably a pretty good thing to have in the human process, but this whole decades and decades of stuff on this in the Catholic priesthood is evidence enough to me that they didn't/don't include that step. (which makes your post irrelevant to the point, I think.)
Today, 05:52 PM #103

Allard: I married a Catholic and have witnessed the lack of the step required to change behavior. No need when you can just be forgiven of all your sins on your deathbed and go straight to heaven as sinless. Strange thinking at best.

The alternative to repentance is to make a mistake, learn from it and go on without Heaven or Hell in the picture.


---

the catholic church, as an institution, allowed abuses, covered etc. and pedophilia is a crime. the Church must suffer consequences and be reformed.

that said, as is abundantly clear in the thread, there is a constant effort to generalize to faults of 'catholicism', various catholic individuals, etc, as witness the quote just above, having nothing to to with church and abuse.

sr. //Well, yes, that's the root of the problem in the Catholic church//

===
i'm addressing these general points only; i find them not well founded, and have given reasons. i see no specific *catholic* problem around repentance.

when such general points are made, resuming the shouting about the abuse scandal as if it's the only topic, only confirms the emptiness of the general points.
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Old 04-16-2010, 06:32 PM   #105
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pure: //you sin, you repent, you ask for forgiveness and make changes in your behavior; you're forgiven. you sin again, inevitably.

sounds like the human process. it's found throughout xianity-- notably, the evangelicals. what's the alternative.? sin, despair, go to hell?//

sr71 Quite obviously the Catholic Church didn't require the "change your behavior" step. It's unsupportable to say they did from the volume of reported and documented instances that they didn't. And transferring them to another parish don't do the job.

It's probably a pretty good thing to have in the human process, but this whole decades and decades of stuff on this in the Catholic priesthood is evidence enough to me that they didn't/don't include that step. (which makes your post irrelevant to the point, I think.)
Today, 05:52 PM #103

Allard: I married a Catholic and have witnessed the lack of the step required to change behavior. No need when you can just be forgiven of all your sins on your deathbed and go straight to heaven as sinless. Strange thinking at best.

The alternative to repentance is to make a mistake, learn from it and go on without Heaven or Hell in the picture.


---

the catholic church, as an institution, allowed abuses, covered etc. and pedophilia is a crime. the Church must suffer consequences and be reformed.

that said, as is abundantly clear in the thread, there is a constant effort to generalize to faults of 'catholicism', various catholic individuals, etc, as witness the quote just above, having nothing to to with church and abuse.

sr. //Well, yes, that's the root of the problem in the Catholic church//

===
i'm addressing these general points only; i find them not well founded, and have given reasons. i see no specific *catholic* problem around repentance.

when such general points are made, resuming the shouting about the abuse scandal as if it's the only topic, only confirms the emptiness of the general points.
These aren't just Catholic individuals, Pure. These are Catholic priests, the mechanism that makes the institutional church run.

Dance around on the head of a pin all you want. This is an institutional problem that has been enabled (no, promoted) by the institution.
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Old 04-16-2010, 07:10 PM   #106
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I married a Catholic and have witnessed the lack of the step required to change behavior. No need when you can just be forgiven of all your sins on your deathbed and go straight to heaven as sinless. Strange thinking at best.
Ah. That explains a lot about this thread.

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The alternative to repentance is to make a mistake, learn from it and go on without Heaven or Hell in the picture.
It's also possible to realize "I married an asshole of my own free will," without seeking an excuse to bash millions of people worldwide for his asshole-ness and your poor judgment.
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Old 04-16-2010, 07:39 PM   #107
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Ah. That explains a lot about this thread.



It's also possible to realize "I married an asshole of my own free will," without seeking an excuse to bash millions of people worldwide for his asshole-ness and your poor judgment.
Make ridiculous, off-the-cuff judgments about other people much?
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Old 04-16-2010, 07:49 PM   #108
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True enough, this is not about my bad marriage or the Catholic worship as a whole. I only meant to clarify I have lived with a Catholic and married into a large family of them, aka experience. I even got baptized on Holy Saturday Night and took communion every Sunday for several years. It did not work on me.

This thread is about known and condoned abuse of children by the very people supposed to be their spiritual leaders (and the cover-ups).
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Old 04-16-2010, 08:00 PM   #109
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This thread is about known and condoned abuse of children by the very people supposed to be their spiritual leaders (and the cover-ups).
Sure, the particulars of the case are one thing. Nothing against a discussion of that, much less personally against you. It's just that it sounds a lot like bigotry when every second post attacks Catholicism on the whole, particularly with a certain WASP-centric sense of superiority. As one political thinker advised, it's best "not to assume one's own village and the strange customs it contains are the navel of the world."
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Old 04-16-2010, 08:00 PM   #110
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Is this a real "Come to Jesus" moment in the long history of the Church?

The lace on his Holiness' gown is a little frayed and people see the hypocrisy of much of the Political Relations, of the Church. Is Ratziner, child of Nazi Germany up to his responsibilities in the new Century?

By summer's end we will know if the Pope has transcended his political self for his spiritual selflessness? I always felt that upon being elected Pope that the Spirit took you and you became as God? But I'm not Catholic.

"The Church" and the church of the laity, or the Priesthood?

Can a organization of mid evil origins possible operate in the modern world? With all the PC and "Who gives a Fuck if he's the Pope, he has ..." but accepting the responsibilities for one's own sins, is the real issue, isn't it?

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Old 04-16-2010, 08:11 PM   #111
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Sure, the particulars of the case are one thing. Nothing against a discussion of that, much less personally against you. It's just that it sounds a lot like bigotry when every second post attacks Catholicism on the whole, particularly with a certain WASP-centric sense of superiority. As one political thinker advised, it's best "not to assume one's own village and the strange customs it contains are the navel of the world."
Well, the discussion is focused on the Catholic church. This isn't a comparison or a competition. There are a lot of parallel Protestant cases too. But the thread's not a race in bad behavior, nor does having it happen elsewhere excuse the Catholic institution one zot.

That said, there aren't many Protestant denominations that empower their clergy like the Catholic Church does--and there haven't been anywhere near as many reports of the Protestant clergy abusing their position in this respect as with the Catholic Church. To suggest there has would be a head-in-sand enabling stance--and one day less in getting the institution's house in order.
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Old 04-16-2010, 08:26 PM   #112
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Well, the discussion is focused on the Catholic church. This isn't a comparison or a competition. There are a lot of parallel Protestant cases too. But the thread's not a race in bad behavior, nor does having it happen elsewhere excuse the Catholic institution one zot.

That said, there aren't many Protestant denominations that empower their clergy like the Catholic Church does--and there haven't been anywhere near as many reports of the Protestant clergy abusing their position in this respect as with the Catholic Church. To suggest there has would be a head-in-sand enabling stance--and one day less in getting the institution's house in order.
Completely in agreement with your first para, and unable to comment on your second para. (Because I'm not following clerical scandals and have no real basis for comparison.) I reacted only to a particular type of comments. The rest is interesting to follow.
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Old 04-16-2010, 08:35 PM   #113
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Completely in agreement with your first para, and unable to comment on your second para. (Because I'm not following clerical scandals and have no real basis for comparison.) I reacted only to a particular type of comments. The rest is interesting to follow.
I'm with you on your reaction. I have no time for "let's you and me get the rotten bastard" discussions told from only one side.
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Old 04-16-2010, 10:17 PM   #114
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Enough had transpired regarding this problem in the news to warrant a discussion on AH, especially when new 'news' keeps getting added all the time from the Vatican, Britain, South America and the U.S. to keep this thread going for a while.

I do appreciate all the viewpoints even if mine is a bit jaded.
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Old 04-16-2010, 11:33 PM   #115
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The established churches have a lot to answer for - millennia of oppression, brutality and manipulation. I would never abuse people for their faith but I do call the church to task for their corrupt, grasping and indefensible actions over the centuries.

This recent furore is only one in many - I do hope that this time the faithful people of the Catholic Church rise up and say 'no more' - to this Pope and any other Pope who tries to defend this now crumbling, archaic and morally indefensible authority.
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Old 04-17-2010, 03:36 AM   #116
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But Catholics cannot disagree or suffer the pain of separation from the Church as stated earlier in this thread. A Catch 22, I think they call it.

Many reformists have attempted to do a better job of it, over the ages.
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Old 04-17-2010, 12:59 PM   #117
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The established churches have a lot to answer for - millennia of oppression, brutality and manipulation. I would never abuse people for their faith but I do call the church to task for their corrupt, grasping and indefensible actions over the centuries.

This recent furore is only one in many - I do hope that this time the faithful people of the Catholic Church rise up and say 'no more' - to this Pope and any other Pope who tries to defend this now crumbling, archaic and morally indefensible authority.
UK, US, Europe, Russia have a lot to answer for too. Good luck with that.
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Old 04-17-2010, 01:23 PM   #118
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The Pope says to repent. I prefer to pray.

Even though I don't believe in Heaven or Hell, I find great comfort in praying, sending love and positive feelings to my family, friends, all people across the earth, and especially the helpless children.
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Old 04-20-2010, 05:20 PM   #119
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Church pedophilia scandal grows in Latin America

Church pedophilia scandal grows in Latin America

By TALES AZZONI, Associated Press Writer

'SAO PAULO – The detention of an 83-year-old priest in Brazil for allegedly abusing boys as young as 12 has added to the scandals hitting the Roman Catholic Church in Latin America, even as Chile's bishops asked pardon on Tuesday for past sexual abuse cases.

The allegations against Monsignor Luiz Marques Barbosa — and two other Brazilian priests — have made headlines throughout the world's most populous Catholic nation and come amid accusations of sexual abuse by priests across the world.

The scandal erupted when Brazilian television network SBT last month broadcast a tape of Barbosa in bed with a 19-year-old that was widely distributed on the Internet.

The station said the video was secretly filmed in January 2009 and sent anonymously to the network. It was not clear if the 19-year-old, identified as a former altar boy who had worked with Barbosa for four years, had previous sexual relations with the priest.

SBT reporters went to Barbosa's house and confronted him. Asked if he ever abused boys, Barbosa said he could only answer such a question "in confession" and cut off the interview.

Brazil's legislature launched a sex abuse investigation, which produced allegations Barbosa molested boys. The elderly priest was detained late Sunday."


The rest of the article is on yahoo.news.
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Old 04-20-2010, 10:33 PM   #120
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I am quoting from the previous post of mine,

"The scandal erupted when Brazilian television network SBT last month broadcast a tape of Barbosa in bed with a 19-year-old that was widely distributed on the Internet.

The station said the video was secretly filmed in January 2009 and sent anonymously to the network. It was not clear if the 19-year-old, identified as a former altar boy who had worked with Barbosa for four years, had previous sexual relations with the priest."

Did anyone see anything like this video on the net?
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Old 04-24-2010, 07:48 PM   #121
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Vatican to finance adult stem cell research

By ALESSANDRA RIZZO, Associated Press Writer

"ROME – The Vatican is pushing for research of adult stem cells as an alternative to the use of embryonic stem cells, which the Catholic Church opposes because it maintains that the destruction of the embryo amounts to the killing of human life.

On Friday, the Catholic Church threw its support and resources behind the study of intestinal adult stem cells by a group of experts led by the University of Maryland School of Medicine. The group wants to explore the potential use of those cells in the treatment of intestinal and possibly other diseases, and is seeking an initial euro2 million ($2.7 million) to get the project going, officials said.

"This research protects life," Cardinal Renato Martino said during a meeting with Italian and American scientists and health officials to outline the project. "I want to stress that it doesn't involve embryonic stem cells, where one helps oneself and then throws the embryo away and kills a human life."

The church is opposed to embryonic stem cell research because it involves the destruction of embryos, but it supports the use of adult stem cells, which are found in the bodies of all humans. Human embryonic stem cells are produced from surplus embryos of in vitro fertilization procedures used to help infertile women get pregnant.

Both are prized for their ability to morph into other kinds of cells, offering the possibility of replacing tissue damaged by ailments such as Parkinson's disease.

But adult cells are thought to be less versatile than embryonic ones, and scientists have had more trouble growing adult stem cells in the laboratory than embryonic cells.

Still, adult stem cells could be easier to use if they are taken from patients themselves, because the replacement tissue would have less chance of being rejected.

Martino, a powerful cardinal and retired head of the Pontifical Council for Justice and Peace, told The Associated Press after the meeting that he had "no doubt" that the Vatican would help finance the project through its Rome hospital, Bambin Gesu, and other funding. The exact amount and modalities will be worked out in future meetings with the University of Maryland and other scientists involved in the project.

In 2007, Pope Benedict XVI said the Catholic Church can encourage somatic stem cell research — also known as adult stem cell research — "because of the favorable results obtained through these alternative methods," and more importantly because it respects "the life of the human being at every stage of his or her existence."

During a meeting with President Barack Obama last year at the Vatican, Benedict underscored his beliefs about stem cells by giving the U.S. leader a copy of a Vatican document on bioethics that hardened the church's opposition to using embryos for stem cell research, cloning and in-vitro fertilization.

Obama has lifted restrictions, imposed by his predecessor President George W. Bush, on federal funding of research using human embryonic stem cells.

The Vatican has drawn criticism for its opposition to embryonic stem cell research. But it insists there are scientifically viable alternatives and that the efforts of the scientific community should go in that direction.

Supporting this university project is part of those efforts.

"Ethically, the rules the Catholic Church promotes are really very simple: That all research be respectful of human life," said Father Bob Gahl, an American professor of Moral Philosophy at the Pontifical University of the Holy Cross. "Nobody should be killed in the process of doing medical research. So this new project falls exactly within the Catholic Church's ethical guidelines."

Dr. George Daley, a stem cell expert at Children's Hospital in Boston and past president of the International Society for Stem Cell Research, said both adult and embryonic stem cells may prove useful for treating different diseases.

"I applaud the Vatican for being interested in supporting biomedical research," Daley said Friday, "but I can't help but think there's an agenda."

He called intestinal stem cells "a very exciting area of basic research" but said therapeutic uses are only speculative at this point.

Researchers involved in the Vatican-backed project are convinced that intestinal stem cells — a relatively new field _hold promise and want to assess their potential for therapeutic use.

"We want to harvest them, we want to isolate them, we want to make them grow outside our body," and transform them into cells of any kind, said Alessio Fasano, the scientist leading the project and the director of the University of Maryland's Center for Celiac Research.

"If we reach that phase, if we are able to achieve that goal, then our next step is to eventually move to clinical application," Fasano told the AP before Friday's announcement.

Intestinal stem cells have certain features that make them appealing for this kind of research, Fasano said.

They are very active cells — the intestine replenishes all its cells every few days — and they are intrinsically flexible — already programmed to generate all the various kinds of cells such as mucus cells or epithelial cells present in the highly complex organ. Furthermore, harvesting them can be done through a routine medical procedure, Fasano noted.

Fasano said his team hopes to decide about the feasibility of the project within the next two to three years. He said the network of experts, expected to be around 40 people, would work at their respective facilities, sharing information and the workload to speed up the process. "


Good publicity, I suppose.
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Old 04-25-2010, 07:00 AM   #122
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Oops! Idiocy will out.

Britain apologises over papal "condoms" document
Reuters Yesterday, 11:06 pm

Michael Holden

The Foreign Office apologised on Saturday for a memorandum by a civil servant suggesting Pope Benedict should open a hospital abortion ward when he visits Britain this year.

The document, which was leaked to the Sunday Telegraph newspaper, also included the proposals that the pope should bless a gay marriage and launch papal-branded condoms when he comes to Britain in September.

The paper said the ideas, ridiculing the teachings of the Catholic Church against abortion and contraception, resulted from a "brainstorm" session. It said Britain's ambassador to the Vatican had expressed the government's regret to senior officials there.

"This is clearly a foolish document that does not in any way reflect UK government or FCO policy or views," a spokesman for the Foreign and Commonwealth Office said. "Many of the ideas in the document are clearly ill-judged, naive and disrespectful."

The paper said the proposals, drawn up by a junior civil servant in a memo headlined "The ideal visit would see ...," were circulated among officials in Prime Minister Gordon Brown's Downing Street office and at the Foreign Office.

The document, which had a cover note admitting that some of the plans were "far-fetched," also alluded to sex scandals involving paedophile priests in a number of countries by suggesting Pope Benedict should launch a helpline for abused children.

Other ideas included getting the pontiff to perform forward rolls with children to promote healthy living and even performing a duet with Queen Elizabeth, the Telegraph said.

The Foreign Office spokesman said no ministers had been shown the document and it was withdrawn when senior officials became aware of it. The individual responsible had been moved to other duties.

"He has been told orally and in writing that this was a serious error of judgement and has accepted this view," the spokesman said.

"The FCO very much regrets this incident and is deeply sorry for the offence which it has caused. We strongly value the close and productive relationship between the UK government and the Holy See and look forward to deepening this further with the visit of Pope Benedict to the UK later this year."

Benedict's trip from September 16 to 19 will be the first papal visit to Britain since 1982. He is due to meet the queen and the Archbishop of Canterbury, spiritual head of the Anglican Church.

(Editing by Mark Trevelyan)
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Old 04-25-2010, 07:08 AM   #123
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The Church should be funding fossil hunting expeditions to find our earliest hominid ancestors. They've got some serious scientists wearing their robes now. They should show that they're ready for the 19th Century at least.

Mysticism isn't going to beat 21st Century proof obsession and verifiability. They're going to have to hitch a ride on rationality if they want people to continue to buy their symbols and contexts.
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Old 04-25-2010, 07:19 AM   #124
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The Church should be funding fossil hunting expeditions to find our earliest hominid ancestors. They've got some serious scientists wearing their robes now. They should show that they're ready for the 19th Century at least.

Mysticism isn't going to beat 21st Century proof obsession and verifiability. They're going to have to hitch a ride on rationality if they want people to continue to buy their symbols and contexts.
I didn't think that the Roman Catholic Church denied evolution. That appears to be more typical of some US denominations.

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Old 04-25-2010, 07:55 AM   #125
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Originally Posted by oggbashan View Post
I didn't think that the Roman Catholic Church denied evolution. That appears to be more typical of some US denominations.

Og
They don't deny science like the Evangelicals, they just accept it with a frown. They should be embracing it and making it a part of their program.
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