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Old 04-12-2010, 12:08 PM   #1
AllardChardon
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Pope Bashing?

With the latest headlines, the Pope (Ratzinger) has declared that "bishops and other high-ranking clerics should report such crimes to police if required by law", quoted from the article on Yahoo news, Vatican makes clear bishops must report sex abuse , does anyone out there want to join me in a little Pope Bashing for fun?
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Old 04-12-2010, 01:15 PM   #2
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It was the article from the Vatican that the media were on a smear campaign to make the Catholic Church look bad that really caught my interest along with the blind boys who were molested by a priest in Wisconsin over a 20 year period. Ratzinger stopped the investigation into that priest's molestations before he became Pope. The priest died two years later without being exposed for the sick pedophile he was. Why didn't Ratzinger report the priest then?

The 300 blind and deaf children who were molested in Italy did not help the Catholic Church's image when it hit the news. How can the news media be held responsible for a smear campaign that is filled with truth?
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Old 04-12-2010, 01:24 PM   #3
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It's "bashing the Bishop" and "punishing the Pope".

This is usually a solitary pursuit, but sometimes in front of a web cam.
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Old 04-12-2010, 01:27 PM   #4
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I'm not, nor have ever been, Catholic, however bashing someone's religion is rather distasteful to me. Religion is a very personal thing.
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Old 04-12-2010, 01:30 PM   #5
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The first defense when someone is accused is "I didn't do it." The second is, "It wasn't as bad as you're making it out to be. You're a sensationalist trying to sell a story, trying to tear me down for personal reasons."

At a certain point the business of media is a business and is trying to sell a story. Most people will believe everything that comes out about someone or a group in the media all the way down to "Saddam Hussein is equivalent to Hitler, that's why we must attack Iraq!" It's been part Pope bashing since he became Pope. Was he a Nazi youth? Was he a protector of child molesters? It's really irrelevant what he is or was, he's either the Pope or the Great Satan depending on which organization you aligned yourself with when you were sixteen or eight or thirty-eight.
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Old 04-12-2010, 02:24 PM   #6
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Ratzinger was "protecting the reputation of the Church," when he stopped the investigation. Well and reducing the risk of a civil trial.

So now we know where his priorities are and can evaluate his, ah, obedience to his faith.

He obviously protected the Church, instead of the children. Funny how that happens?
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Old 04-12-2010, 02:29 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cloudy View Post
I'm not, nor have ever been, Catholic, however bashing someone's religion is rather distasteful to me. Religion is a very personal thing.
I agree, but there is a great difference between respecting someone's religious and ethical beliefs and criticizing the corporate failings of the earthly organizations that claim to represent a perfect deity.

The interpretation is all and I feel the establishment figures of the Catholic church have been shown up to be tainted by the evidence that shows they were prepared to put sheltering pedophile priests ahead of desperately abused and damaged children.

As we rightly attack Muslim repression of women, down to genital mutilation, oppose the Baptist demand to teach Creationism instead of science and struggle within ourselves to find ethical answers to questions of abortion, euthanasia and why the Catholic church condemns so many Africans to an early death by eschewing condoms, I struggle to support the established religions.

Individual faith should have little to do with Cardinal Ratzinger or Osama bin Laden or any crazy Baptist preacher.

Cloudy, the Vatican has been shamed, no-one is dumping on the religion.
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Old 04-12-2010, 02:33 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by elfin_odalisque View Post
I agree, but there is a great difference between respecting someone's religious and ethical beliefs and criticizing the corporate failings of the earthly organizations that claim to represent a perfect deity.

The interpretation is all and I feel the establishment figures of the Catholic church have been shown up to be tainted by the evidence that shows they were prepared to put sheltering pedophile priests ahead of desperately abused and damaged children.

As we rightly attack Muslim repression of women, down to genital mutilation, oppose the Baptist demand to teach Creationism instead of science and struggle within ourselves to find ethical answers to questions of abortion, euthanasia and why the Catholic church condemns so many Africans to an early death by eschewing condoms, I struggle to support the established religions.

Individual faith should have little to do with Cardinal Ratzinger or Osama bin Laden or any crazy Baptist preacher.

Cloudy, the Vatican has been shamed, no-one is dumping on the religion.
I understand, however, the OP invited people to join her in "pope bashing for fun," not a reasonable discussion of the failings of the administration of the RC Church.

There's quite a difference.
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Old 04-12-2010, 02:35 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cloudy View Post
I understand, however, the OP invited people to join her in "pope bashing for fun," not a reasonable discussion of the failings of the administration of the RC Church.

There's quite a difference.
Totally agree.
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Old 04-12-2010, 02:44 PM   #10
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Pope bashing has a long and illustrious history. Bashing the Pope is not the same as attacking the "Religion".

Most of what people think is "their Church" is ritual and ceremony and has nothing to do with Christianity.

Come to think of it, a lot of the Church's history shows that the "Church" has more important issues that the petty needs of the parishioners.
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Old 04-12-2010, 02:45 PM   #11
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From what I read, and please don't quote me, all priestly misconduct went through Ratzinger's office and he knew it all, long before we ever did. Most of it was kept hush hush to protect the church, yes.

But now, the fear of the church's power is waning and people are coming forth with their accounts of being molested.

Is this latest recommendation being given because the Pope knows what else is going to surface in the near future or is he trying to stem the tide?

BTW, Pope Bashing is a term I meant for only this Pope, not the entire Catholic church or its many followers. I question this leader's motives, just like I did with Geo. W.

I am grateful we have a free media that can report these findings so we can learn the truth. I bet the church wishes they could shut everyone up, though.
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Old 04-12-2010, 02:49 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JackLuis View Post
Pope bashing has a long and illustrious history. Bashing the Pope is not the same as attacking the "Religion".
But it is, if you are Catholic. The Pope is looked upon as a direct descendant of Saint Peter. If you bash the Pope, you are bashing the religion.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JackLuis View Post
Most of what people think is "their Church" is ritual and ceremony and has nothing to do with Christianity.
In your opinion. I wouldn't hesitate a guess, even, as to what "most people think is their Church." Isn't that a rather grand sweeping generalization?

Quote:
Originally Posted by JackLuis View Post
Come to think of it, a lot of the Church's history shows that the "Church" has more important issues that the petty needs of the parishioners.
I would agree, but then, the RCC has all the same problems any large organization has. To imply that those problems only occur in the RCC is more than a little disingenuous.
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Old 04-12-2010, 02:54 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cloudy View Post
I understand, however, the OP invited people to join her in "pope bashing for fun," not a reasonable discussion of the failings of the administration of the RC Church.

There's quite a difference.
Discussing the failings of the RC church would take much more that this thread to address, however "Pope Bashing" fits in quite nicely in a porn thread.

I think that Ratzinger was elected as a reaction to the previous Pope's "liberalness." He seems much more "conservative" than the old Pope.

cloudy: "I would agree, but then, the RCC has all the same problems any large organization has. To imply that those problems only occur in the RCC is more than a little disingenuous.

I never said that the RCC was alone in their hypocrisy. But they do have a 2000 year history of it.

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Old 04-12-2010, 02:55 PM   #14
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I added the "for fun" part to open the dialog with a bit of humor in this most delicate matter of abusing defenseless children, unbelievably allowing the abuse to continue and then covering it up.
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Old 04-12-2010, 02:58 PM   #15
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Wouldn't Catholics want to know if their leader, descended from St. Peter or not, was a person who condoned misconduct by his priests?

We must question authority or we are lost!
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Old 04-12-2010, 02:59 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by elfin_odalisque View Post
I agree, but there is a great difference between respecting someone's religious and ethical beliefs and criticizing the corporate failings of the earthly organizations that claim to represent a perfect deity.

The interpretation is all and I feel the establishment figures of the Catholic church have been shown up to be tainted by the evidence that shows they were prepared to put sheltering pedophile priests ahead of desperately abused and damaged children.

As we rightly attack Muslim repression of women, down to genital mutilation, oppose the Baptist demand to teach Creationism instead of science and struggle within ourselves to find ethical answers to questions of abortion, euthanasia and why the Catholic church condemns so many Africans to an early death by eschewing condoms, I struggle to support the established religions.

Individual faith should have little to do with Cardinal Ratzinger or Osama bin Laden or any crazy Baptist preacher.

Cloudy, the Vatican has been shamed, no-one is dumping on the religion.
Papal infallibility is the dogma in Roman Catholic theology that, by action of the Holy Spirit, the Pope is preserved from even the possibility of error when he solemnly declares or promulgates to the universal Church a dogmatic teaching on faith or morals as being contained in divine revelation, or at least being intimately connected to divine revelation.

For a Catholic, your individual faith is tied to the ecclesiastical corporate structure. You can't receive Jesus, confess your sins, deal in any of the Sacraments that make one a Catholic without the Priest, Bishop, Cardinal, Pope starting lineup. Without the structure there is no practice of Catholicism. To be Catholic means "to live by the doctrine of the Church." Not the doctrine of God, but the order of the Church. Ratzinger the man can commit sins, his priests can commit sins, but the Pope and the Priestly order(the Church) is faultless.

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Old 04-12-2010, 03:14 PM   #17
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In my research into Queen Elizabeth I, I read about the Pope at that time hiring assassins to kill the Bastard Queen. I guess a lot of Popes over the years have committed horrible crimes, but the the Church somehow remains clean?

An interesting disclaimer from the longest and richest closely-held corporation in the world. No matter what their leaders do, the church is not responsible, huh?
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Old 04-12-2010, 03:22 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AllardChardon View Post
In my research into Queen Elizabeth I, I read about the Pope at that time hiring assassins to kill the Bastard Queen. I guess a lot of Popes over the years have committed horrible crimes, but the the Church somehow remains clean?

An interesting disclaimer from the longest and richest closely-held corporation in the world. No matter what their leaders do, the church is not responsible, huh?
Yeah it is just like "W", he can fail to grasp the situation and wipe out our Treasury, but he can't be blamed for stupidity, because the President is always right. Revisionist Historians, you know those who look at the facts, will disagree and rip his "Glorious Legacy" to shreds, leaving future generations, who have to pay off his debt, will never realize how wise and compassionate he was supposed to be.
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Old 04-12-2010, 03:23 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AllardChardon View Post
In my research into Queen Elizabeth I, I read about the Pope at that time hiring assassins to kill the Bastard Queen. I guess a lot of Popes over the years have committed horrible crimes, but the the Church somehow remains clean?

An interesting disclaimer from the longest and richest closely-held corporation in the world. No matter what their leaders do, the church is not responsible, huh?
Does God hold people accountable for their actions or does God hold abstract entities accountable for a person's actions?
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Old 04-12-2010, 03:23 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AllardChardon View Post
In my research into Queen Elizabeth I, I read about the Pope at that time hiring assassins to kill the Bastard Queen. I guess a lot of Popes over the years have committed horrible crimes, but the the Church somehow remains clean?

An interesting disclaimer from the longest and richest closely-held corporation in the world. No matter what their leaders do, the church is not responsible, huh?
See, that's the thing. Are you looking at it as a church, or as a corporation?

The two are held to differing standards, aren't they?
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Old 04-12-2010, 03:28 PM   #21
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It wasn't me the priest who molested that boy, it was my Priestly Order that did it!

Corporations exist so individuals aren't held accountable for the organization's actions. Though, Jeff Skilling and Ken Lay were prosecuted through the veil of corporate ineffability. As there actions weren't corporate actions but individual sins.

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Old 04-12-2010, 03:47 PM   #22
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It all started with ...that woman in The Garden....

Various Popes over the years have meddled in various earthly affairs. When the Catholic Church was the reigning political force in most countries, it would have been just about impossible for a Pope to not meddle in politics, even to the point of sending out assassins. But then, the history of (now) Italian politics is a book flowing with red ink. (Pun intended )

Pope Benedict XVI, back when he was Archbishop Ratzinger, Prefect of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, thus the guy in charge of keeping discipline and maintaining order at the Vatican (a country unto itself, by the way), was in a very bad position. How to maintain the veil of the Incorruptible Church while dealing with very corruptible pedophile priests and bishops. Who would want a job like that, besides Ratzinger himself.

Now that he is Pope Benedict XVI, I really pity the guy. Now that he is, by Catholic doctrine, infallible and cannot ever be in error, how's he going to clean up the mess he didn't clean up back when he had the chance? I don't see how he can admit to having messed up as an Archbishop, then claim that his election to Pope, by the papal conclave has eliminated his ability to mess up.

If he doesn't admit to having messed up, he is, in the eyes of us mere mortals, fallible. But he can't be fallible because he was elected Pope....

But he is fallible because he failed all those kids....

My head hurts.

At least I can take a couple of Tylenols. What can this poor guy do?
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Old 04-12-2010, 03:51 PM   #23
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The Catholic Church created itself above all man-made laws, long, long ago.

Did you ever read how the first Pope came into existence, since he was not Peter's direct son? Now, that is interesting. The archbishop of Rome appointed himself as the highest Archbishop on earth and therefore the most 'pope', an affectionate name for a paternal figure in Italian.
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Old 04-12-2010, 03:56 PM   #24
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Quote:
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Now that he is Pope Benedict XVI, I really pity the guy. Now that he is, by Catholic doctrine, infallible and cannot ever be in error, how's he going to clean up the mess he didn't clean up back when he had the chance? I don't see how he can admit to having messed up as an Archbishop, then claim that his election to Pope, by the papal conclave has eliminated his ability to mess up.

If he doesn't admit to having messed up, he is, in the eyes of us mere mortals, fallible. But he can't be fallible because he was elected Pope....

But he is fallible because he failed all those kids....

My head hurts.

At least I can take a couple of Tylenols. What can this poor guy do?
The Pope is not infallible. He is only considered infallible when he issues an edict ex cathedra. The current Pope has never done that and is not likely to. Papal_infallibility

Og
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Old 04-12-2010, 04:38 PM   #25
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Quote:
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The Pope is not infallible. He is only considered infallible when he issues an edict ex cathedra. The current Pope has never done that and is not likely to. Papal_infallibility

Og
Og, nice link to what is to my mind simple bullshit, cast in words of the weasel.

I admit to a level of anti-Catholicism, because of my culture and upbringing. The Irish are a stubborn about things. However I focus on the Pope and the Structure of the Church. rather than shooting "Mackerel Snappers".

It is the size and power of the RCC that is the problem. Power Corrupts it is said, probably from the study of the Churches and Empires over the last 5,000 years.

It amuses me to watch these crises of conviction at the highest levels of so ridged and brittle an organization.

"The Arrogance of Power", explains the phenomena pretty well and if anybody ever gets down to writing the truth of GWB's administration "The Power of Arrogance," should be the title.

I pity the Pope as a man. He is in a position where he has to bear responsibility for his predecessor's atrocities, yet gains little from their accomplishments. The burdens of power.

Okay, Pope and Bush bashed. Not bad for a rainy cold day.
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