the marks of a slave

He started reading the post above, and hadn't gone further than the second sentence before saying "I don't agree."

eastern sun said:

He cedes authority in many areas, and doesn't want to be bothered with the details. He also makes compromises, a lot, taking into account the needs of the kids, the house, our extended family, me.

It's interesting, because it really isn't me who has to compromise. I am free to voice my opinion - as it is. He works with it. I may or may not get what I want. I may have to accept an alternative. But I feel free to form opinions based purely on my own understanding of the circumstances, while I'm certain that he feels he has to make compromises all the time, because of his position of authority.

Click to expand...

I don't consider my marriage TPE, but I also do feel that I'm more in the authority position than my vanilla relationship of old and I relate to the above *immensely*. I feel as though I have to have my eye on the "greatest good" factor, weighing in M's desires and my own, often no one getting exactly what they want in the "I want a candy bar!" sense but living to fight on leaner and meaner overall and often pointed in the direction of progress, in love, life, and functionality. Could he do this on his own? Could I? Probably not as well.

Thanks again for taking the time to respond to all this, Netzach. I think this is another interesting point, in relation to TPE -

Netzach said:

Most people enter into things and then decide if that's where they want to be and adjust, in my observation. I know of very few people who know what they want, dive in, never look back.

Click to expand...

I have observed the same thing. But I have also had the experience of making a choice over 20 years ago in which there was no exit route.

True, I could have run away. Yes, if it were truly abusive, I might be able to see my way out of it.

But I have lived the majority of my adult life in a relationship where I felt I did not have a choice to leave. And I made this decision when I was young, diving in, thinking I knew exactly what I wanted for the rest of my hopefully long life.

Now it is true that both of us have changed within the relationship. Adjusted. Adapted. Both to each other, and to the changing circumstances of an adult life. But both of us have also been unhappy for long periods of time.

Throughout this relationship, I have fully embraced the fact that there was no exit route, because it has forced us to work with the real sources of our unhappiness which are almost always primarily internal conflicts, unrealistic expectations, and fear. Or habits of disappointment and resentment.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that I have embraced the idea that you make a choice, and then learn to live with it - not try it and then if it doesn't work out move on - for so long now, I'm wondering how it affects my guidance of my adolescent children.

Netzach said:

As for TPE, you're looking at the result and not the process. If you are the kind of person who chooses a difficult, unpopular, and all-encompassing mode of relationship how does that NOT make you acceptable as a model in decision making? You're not dealing with the abdication of decision when you are talking about the act of deciding this is the best life for you - that's just the contents of the scripture.

Click to expand...

But my desire and willingness to abdicate decision-making, even if it's impossible, extends into the lives of my children as well.

I am specifically being called on the carpet for not challenging a decision that my son made, a decision about what high schools he was interested in attending. I have been asked "what kind of parent sets their child up to fail?" I have been told that I let my son "choose his own poison." Granted I'm being told this by someone I do not trust, someone who wields his authority like a bully, but it has gotten under my skin.

I understand why my son made the choices he made. I supported him all along the way. He has made other choices that were difficult and challenging - but because they were "his idea," he has been willing to step up in ways that I don't think he would if he was doing it simply to please me or his father.

But I also wonder if maybe my willingness to abdicate decision-making isn't also a problem here. Habits. I certainly exert my authority over my children. I am highly influential in their lives. But maybe when there isn't an obvious choice, I cede control where I shouldn't. This is what I'm wondering about.

eastern sun said:

I guess what I'm trying to say is that I have embraced the idea that you make a choice, and then learn to live with it - not try it and then if it doesn't work out move on - for so long now, I'm wondering how it affects my guidance of my adolescent children.

Click to expand...

Part of me has the tendency to deal as you, by sticking to it no matter what. But part of me has learned that there is a time when calling it quit is not a sign of weakness nor taking the easy way out.

So in regard to my children I give them a time frame withing which they have to stick with the decision and the consequences. And after that, if it does not get better, they can change their mind.

Netzach said:

I don't consider my marriage TPE, but I also do feel that I'm more in the authority position than my vanilla relationship of old and I relate to the above *immensely*. I feel as though I have to have my eye on the "greatest good" factor, weighing in M's desires and my own, often no one getting exactly what they want in the "I want a candy bar!" sense but living to fight on leaner and meaner overall and often pointed in the direction of progress, in love, life, and functionality. Could he do this on his own? Could I? Probably not as well.

Click to expand...

This is my experience as well. Were it not for the others in my life that I am responsible for, I doubt I would be where I am. I am not one that pays overmuch attention to myself or my needs. Responsibility, at some level, for others, makes me be a better me.

eastern sun said:

Thanks again for taking the time to respond to all this, Netzach. I think this is another interesting point, in relation to TPE -



I have observed the same thing. But I have also had the experience of making a choice over 20 years ago in which there was no exit route.

True, I could have run away. Yes, if it were truly abusive, I might be able to see my way out of it.

But I have lived the majority of my adult life in a relationship where I felt I did not have a choice to leave. And I made this decision when I was young, diving in, thinking I knew exactly what I wanted for the rest of my hopefully long life.

Now it is true that both of us have changed within the relationship. Adjusted. Adapted. Both to each other, and to the changing circumstances of an adult life. But both of us have also been unhappy for long periods of time.

Throughout this relationship, I have fully embraced the fact that there was no exit route, because it has forced us to work with the real sources of our unhappiness which are almost always primarily internal conflicts, unrealistic expectations, and fear. Or habits of disappointment and resentment.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that I have embraced the idea that you make a choice, and then learn to live with it - not try it and then if it doesn't work out move on - for so long now, I'm wondering how it affects my guidance of my adolescent children.

Click to expand...

I said "adjust" not "ditch when it's not a bed of roses."
What you're describing is a kind of adjusting.

It's not a walk in the park or else leave thing that I'm talking about, nor is what you're talking about that foreign to me.
There's a difference between less than happy and completely unhealthy and you're not the sole influence in their lives either. Chances are there's some messaging out there that tells them "there's a point where you can declare yourself unwilling to live with something."

eastern sun said:

But my desire and willingness to abdicate decision-making, even if it's impossible, extends into the lives of my children as well.

I am specifically being called on the carpet for not challenging a decision that my son made, a decision about what high schools he was interested in attending. I have been asked "what kind of parent sets their child up to fail?" I have been told that I let my son "choose his own poison." Granted I'm being told this by someone I do not trust, someone who wields his authority like a bully, but it has gotten under my skin.

I understand why my son made the choices he made. I supported him all along the way. He has made other choices that were difficult and challenging - but because they were "his idea," he has been willing to step up in ways that I don't think he would if he was doing it simply to please me or his father.

But I also wonder if maybe my willingness to abdicate decision-making isn't also a problem here. Habits. I certainly exert my authority over my children. I am highly influential in their lives. But maybe when there isn't an obvious choice, I cede control where I shouldn't. This is what I'm wondering about.

Click to expand...

OK, consider the reverse. You put your foot down, you send him to X.

A. he loves it in spite of himself in a couple of weeks.
B. not. It can be undone, right, but how painfully?

This doesn't seem like mindless caving to whatever is your kid's whim. It seems like a decision rooted in knowing him and trusting him.

I was being screamed at to apply to certain colleges. I applied early to one 1500 miles away, got in, end of discussion, and I go home once every two years. I never looked back from the lack of control that I had over anything in my life, so you are talking to the wrong person about this, perhaps. A lot of people get very psychotic about prestige and polish and not that into the nuts and bolts of the right educational environment for the right person.

I also met a girl this summer who has the career I fucking wish I had. She dropped out of Pratt her junior undergrad year.

Netzach said:

I said "adjust" not "back out."
What you're describing is a kind of adjusting. It's not a walk in the park or else leave, nor is what you're talking about that foreign to me.

Click to expand...

I noticed that, actually, while I was writing.

It's me that keeps focussing on this "escape route," who wants to "cut and run" when things get difficult, even though I already know it's not going to be an option. The old "fight or flight" response woven into modern urban living.

I have a new 12-step sponsor who is working with me on what she sees as a possible adrenaline addiction. With an adrenaline habit linked to both sexual and emotional conditioning, she thinks I might be prone to react to events in my life with a hyped-up fear response. In other words, maybe there are causes for concern, but maybe my tendency to stimulate my adrenal glands for recreational purposes has created an over-active stress response and I'm losing clear sight of the facts.

eastern sun said:

I noticed that, actually, while I was writing.

It's me that keeps focussing on this "escape route," who wants to "cut and run" when things get difficult, even though I already know it's not going to be an option. The old "fight or flight" response woven into modern urban living.

I have a new 12-step sponsor who is working with me on what she sees as a possible adrenaline addiction. With an adrenaline habit linked to both sexual and emotional conditioning, she thinks I might be prone to react to events in my life with a hyped-up fear response. In other words, maybe there are causes for concern, but maybe my tendency to stimulate my adrenal glands for recreational purposes has created an over-active stress response and I'm losing clear sight of the facts.

Click to expand...

This is not a bad theory, it's incredible how those imaginary sabre tooth tigers can do a number on you. I'm on non-recreational substances at the moment which are playing with mine.

I am uncomfortable expressing my needs when I know it is in direct opposition to his desires. Often when I try to communicate my needs it leads to confusing conversations where we both feel frustrated and unhappy.

Example: Yesterday, he wants to go to the museum. My daughter has an event at school. We are going to meet him for dinner and a movie afterwards.

At the event, my daughter develops a migraine. She's young and unfamiliar with the pain and nausea. It is rough. An hour before we're supposed to meet, my husband calls and I tell him what's going on. We agree that the kids and I will stay home. He'll join us when he's finished.

I spend the next five hours with a screaming child.

By the time he comes home, she feels better, but I am exhausted. He tells me about the exhibit at the museum.

After the kids go to sleep, I want to tell him how hard it was that afternoon. That I needed him at home. That I want more attention from him. That I want a certain kind of love.

It comes out all wrong. I tell him I feel like a single parent. I want some clarification of the M/s dynamic between us.

I make us both unhappy. He is frustrated, and states that M/s is just conceptual.

For a moment, it breaks my heart. Even though I know he's right, I want something solid to stand on. I want these insubstantial concepts to give form to this life of mine. To make it easier to cope. With my children. My marriage. My emotional life. My creative imagination.

I want to be able to use this language to bind us into some kind of pattern. But he doesn't want to be restrained. Fixed in place by words.

It's funny, really. The relationship doesn't change. The actions remain the same. The sex. The power dynamics. But the language we use to describe it changes our perception of what we're doing. Defining our expectations of what we will experience.

If the M/s relationship between us is merely conceptual, what does that imply about its truth?

At the same time, we are communicating more clearly with each other today.

eastern sun said:

If the M/s relationship between us is merely conceptual, what does that imply about its truth?

Click to expand...

That one, or both, of the parties involved in the dynamic do not feel that they can adequately put to words the dynamic as a whole.

Personally, I can relate. The girls have two rules. They are broad, subject to interpretation, and occasionally conflicting. Tough. I refuse to codify things any further because it does not suit my needs. And when it comes to things like this, my needs outweigh the wants they may have vis a vis rules, definitions, etc.

Rules and definitions by design constrain both ends of the equation, both the ruler and the ruled. The ruled must follow the rules, but the ruler must also enforce them, else they have no meaning.

I have no desire to be forced to enforce rules. I have no desire to be forced to do anything.

What more are you looking for from him?

I still puzzle over what our D/s relationship is. Sometimes I think it's so abstract that I could envision myself to be whatever I want - equal, slave, bedroom sub. And I don't think he would care. I mean, for him, it's what he wants when he wants it, and the rest just falls by the wayside. I could say no and argue. I could be obedient. My status doesn't really change with my behavior.

I have to say, eastern sun, you're a much better and more patient person than I, and for that, I admire you tremendously.

BiBunny said:

I have to say, eastern sun, you're a much better and more patient person than I, and for that, I admire you tremendously.

Click to expand...

Thank you very much, Bunny , and though I do think I'm patient, a virtue developed over the years, I don't think I'm a better person than anyone. Not at all.

We got married when I was 26 and he was 27; and we spent much of that first year fighting. We always took our arguments out into the street because there was no telling how far we would take things, and there was safety on the sidewalk that was missing inside the house. I remember once the way the chain link fence sounded when he threw me against it. And the way my voice echoed in a parking garage when he took me by the throat. And these crazy ass fights we had would always turn out to be foreplay, cause as soon as we'd taken it right to the edge, we'd turn all that ferocious energy into sex.

We mixed this chaotic stuff with a lot of creative experimentation and role-playing as well, and there weren't a whole lot of things that we didn't try. We didn't have any community in those days to tell us that what we were doing was okay. We just lived this life we lived. But I've always felt conflicted between whether or not I was a healthy and sane wild child, or an overly dramatic and maladjusted girl.

intothewoods said:

What more are you looking for from him?

Click to expand...

Certainty, I suppose. Of his affection. Of the rightness of my actions. And my understanding. Of the path we're walking. That kind of thing.

i want to feel more confident that all is well. Even when things are difficult and challenging.

That may not be something he can give.

intothewoods said:

I still puzzle over what our D/s relationship is. Sometimes I think it's so abstract that I could envision myself to be whatever I want - equal, slave, bedroom sub. And I don't think he would care. I mean, for him, it's what he wants when he wants it, and the rest just falls by the wayside. I could say no and argue. I could be obedient. My status doesn't really change with my behavior.

Click to expand...

I totally get this, by the way. I have similar experiences.

I can agree that my status doesn't change with my behavior, but my behavior definitely changes the way he treats me. And sometimes, the way he treats me has nothing to do with me at all.

Homburg said:

That one, or both, of the parties involved in the dynamic do not feel that they can adequately put to words the dynamic as a whole.

Personally, I can relate. The girls have two rules. They are broad, subject to interpretation, and occasionally conflicting. Tough. I refuse to codify things any further because it does not suit my needs. And when it comes to things like this, my needs outweigh the wants they may have vis a vis rules, definitions, etc.

Rules and definitions by design constrain both ends of the equation, both the ruler and the ruled. The ruled must follow the rules, but the ruler must also enforce them, else they have no meaning.

I have no desire to be forced to enforce rules. I have no desire to be forced to do anything.

Click to expand...

Thank you, Homburg. This was very helpful for me to read.

A question: I think we all agree that a "need" is by definition something that must be addressed. How can I express something that I feel I need, without making him feel like he's being "forced" to give it to me? I guess I'm asking - literally, how can I word it so it doesn't pinch?

eastern sun said:

If the M/s relationship between us is merely conceptual, what does that imply about its truth?

Click to expand...

When it comes to relationships, doesn't the truth lies in the fact that the two of you agree on its reality?

Homburg said:

Rules and definitions by design constrain both ends of the equation, both the ruler and the ruled. The ruled must follow the rules, but the ruler must also enforce them, else they have no meaning.

I have no desire to be forced to enforce rules. I have no desire to be forced to do anything.

Click to expand...

As a submissive I felt more abandoned when rules where not enforced than when I did not have them. With trials and errors we realized, Hubby and I, that he could not meet my need for rules as he did not want to be tied by them. So we too now have only a couple of simple basic agreements, with the caveat that he can enforce whatever he wishes whenever he wishes.

As he is not a random ass, it works pretty well. I get to have my leash tightened at times, while not living in perennial expectation of judgment or reward.

intothewoods said:

I still puzzle over what our D/s relationship is. Sometimes I think it's so abstract that I could envision myself to be whatever I want - equal, slave, bedroom sub. And I don't think he would care. I mean, for him, it's what he wants when he wants it, and the rest just falls by the wayside. I could say no and argue. I could be obedient. My status doesn't really change with my behavior.

Click to expand...

Somehow I've found myself Dom(s) that prefer a high degree of agreability and obedience. I don't have to like it (it used to be that Hubby expected me too and we struggled with it for a while), but I have to put myself willingly in place. Or pay the consequences the next time.

I basically have only one way out. A ticked with no return.

eastern sun said:

A question: I think we all agree that a "need" is by definition something that must be addressed. How can I express something that I feel I need, without making him feel like he's being "forced" to give it to me? I guess I'm asking - literally, how can I word it so it doesn't pinch?

Click to expand...

When you find out, let me know!

I've been following some basic guideline that I've read in different books about effective communication and not coming of as accusatory. They are probably obvious, but I'll share them anyway:

- Focus on expressing how I feel, instead on what he is doing that make me feel that way. That means I try to avoid using the word "you" as much as possible.

- Try to also give a suggestion for what would make me feel better, but not putting any condition of expectation on it.

- Thank him for listening (and be mentally prepared for having to repeat the talk at least another 2 to a dozen times )

...................

rida said:

Somehow I've found myself Dom(s) that prefer a high degree of agreability and obedience. I don't have to like it (it used to be that Hubby expected me too and we struggled with it for a while), but I have to put myself willingly in place. Or pay the consequences the next time.

I basically have only one way out. A ticked with no return.

Click to expand...

I guess it's true that if I said "no" all the time, it would get pretty old, pretty fast. I just feel like our "concept" is sort of a fluid one. Sometimes he's more demanding, and sometimes he's more distracted by something else going on in our lives. Right now, the D/s factor is kind of high actually, and it's really good for both of us. But it could totally change in a couple of months.

eastern sun said:

Thank you, Homburg. This was very helpful for me to read.

Click to expand...

You are welcome.

A question: I think we all agree that a "need" is by definition something that must be addressed. How can I express something that I feel I need, without making him feel like he's being "forced" to give it to me? I guess I'm asking - literally, how can I word it so it doesn't pinch?

Click to expand...

No bloody clue, and I don't say that to be flip. Aside from Rida's excellent advice above regarding the communication itself, the best piece of advice I can give is also likely to be the most difficult - know what you need. And make certain that you really NEED it.

This is the most difficult thing I can imagine, as wants often masquerade as needs by virtue of the want being so powerful. I personally define 'need' as something that, if denied long enough, will eventually drive you from the relationship. If you won't leave him for it, or go insane without it, it is not a need.

I will NOT be held to legalistic and complex rules, from either ruled or ruler perspective, and I have walked away from relationships when it was demanded of me. I consider that a proven 'need' as I've walked because of it.

That said, I think that you do have some confusion about both your wants and needs. The most valuable concept to come out of the great Classical philosophers of Greece is simply this - "Know thyself." The Confucian thinkers had the same concept with the chain of order. To make order within his State, the virtuous man must first make order in his town. To make order in his town, the virtuous man must make order in his house. To make order in his house, the virtuous man must first make order within himself.

eastern sun said:

Certainty, I suppose. Of his affection. Of the rightness of my actions. And my understanding. Of the path we're walking. That kind of thing.

i want to feel more confident that all is well. Even when things are difficult and challenging.

That may not be something he can give.

Click to expand...

Feedback that you're doing well at this, right? I get that.

eastern sun said:

I totally get this, by the way. I have similar experiences.

I can agree that my status doesn't change with my behavior, but my behavior definitely changes the way he treats me. And sometimes, the way he treats me has nothing to do with me at all.

Click to expand...

He does like when I do certain things well. We're probably still learning about each other. It still hasn't been all that long actually.