The Non-English Debate Continues...

First Topic; Non-English points.

Okay, last year we found that most (not all) contestants had other people translate stories. I think that we should consider capping the max points in this category, like we do with poetry (maximum 8 pts)

Here is my argument; The stories aren't original, just translated. The author doesn't HAVE to do their own translation, so isn't doing more work than someone else. It might give an unfair advantage to someone who speaks more than one language fluently.

I'm not saying I *AM* going to change this rule, but I just wanted to put the idea out there.

Chicklet

Oh, great!

Take away MY strongest weapon, will ya!

Either that or they DO have to be orginal stories...

And I hear you SF, Poetry is my strong point

I've turned in four submissions so far: Review, Frist Time, Erotic Poem and Non Erotic poem.

My spell check is down and I am learning disablied so sorry for any mess ups I might not catch.

And, I had turned in a story when I first joined called the Kitchen, and was rejected for being too short. So I'm going to re work it and re submit, will it count?

Yes, PS, if you rewrite your story so it has at least 750 words, and then re-submit it, the new story should be accepted, and then it counts.

Seriously, I want the non-English section to be unlimited. OK, so those of us who know more than one language will have an advantage to those who only know English, but, hey - we have gone through years of training to learn other languages, and we DO put down a lot of effort in translating stories, so I think we should be allowed to have that advantage!

Non-English Story Cap

What if we do this?

Cap the number of your own stories you can translate, and cap the number that you can have translated.

Let's say we cap it at 12 pts for your own stories, and an additional 8 points for stories you've translated for someone else, for a possible 18 pts in the category. That's 18 stories you can have in the Non-English category, total. People that work hard to do the translation are rewarded by possibly having many more points than others who did not do their own translations.

What do you think of that?

Chicklet

Re Non-English stories - why not have no cap, but a rule that the stories in this section have to be original, not merely translations of stories already published on Lit in their English form.

To my mind this would remove an anomoly that exists at present - I mean we often write stories that would fit into several categories, but we cannot post the story in each of the categories so why should we be allowed to do this with translations?

jon

jon.hayworth said:

Re Non-English stories - why not have no cap, but a rule that the stories in this section have to be original, not merely translations of stories already published on Lit in their English form.

Click to expand...

I like this, but it makes me sad to think that one of my stories written only for non-english might be lost to my usual readers.

But it seems fair. Simple and fair.

What does everybody else think?

Chicklet

Re: First Topic; Non-English points.

Chicklet said:

Okay, last year we found that most (not all) contestants had other people translate stories. I think that we should consider capping the max points in this category, like we do with poetry (maximum 8 pts)

Here is my argument; The stories aren't original, just translated. The author doesn't HAVE to do their own translation, so isn't doing more work than someone else. It might give an unfair advantage to someone who speaks more than one language fluently.

I'm not saying I *AM* going to change this rule, but I just wanted to put the idea out there.

Chicklet

Click to expand...

I agree with you. Sure, we could say that each author has to translate the story themselves, but let's face it, can we really put that much trust here? (I'm not outrightly accusing anyone of being dishonest, but who's to know?)

I don't see reducing the points to 8 for Non Engligh stories as being "bad". As you said, the stories are not new. They are current stories that are being translated. If you have a friend (or even a program online/on your computer) it's not hard to do this.

jon.hayworth said:

We often write stories that would fit into several categories, but we cannot post the story in each of the categories so why should we be allowed to do this with translations?

Click to expand...

Good point.

I'm in favor of either reducing the points for "translations" OR requiring that the stories be original works.

No, no, no, no, no, no, NO!!!

I found it challenging to see how many points everyone else had, so I could compare my own score with them, and get inspired to work even harder! I want the score sheet up asap! If some people get scared by seeing that other authors have much more points than they do, then to **** with those scaredy-cats!!!

As for the Non-English stories, I think it would be unfair to limit these, because either that means I would get to write original non-english stories that the english-only-speakers would not get to read, or I would only get to translate a few of my available-to-all-stories.

True, I have an advantage in this section, as I can translate all my works into several languages. But so can everyone! All you have to do is find a translator! Chicklet had 5 stories translated last year, and I'm sure she would be able to have even more translated for her this year, as we can all start searching for translators this early in the year! (Nothing personal, Chicklet, just used you as an example.)

It's like the lesbian / gay male stories - I can't write lesbian sex-stories, because I'm a homophobe when it comes to lesbian things. Someone with a more open mind than me can really get high scores here, whereas I can get high scores in non-english. I trust no-one is thinking of putting a cap on how many gay male/lesbian stories one can submit, in order to make it more fair to us homophobes, right?

Score sheet up asap. No caps on any categories except for the poems. There, I've said my piece. Now it's up to the rest of you to agree or disagree with me.



Oh - and sorry for being so brutal with my words here.

Svenska, the only problem with your argument about Non-English is the originality of the stories. When people write more than one Gay Male story, they're writing original stories. Translating them feels too easy to me because you didn't come up with a new idea, just changed it into a different language.

Anyone else have an opinion about the posting of scores?

You think translating isn't as hard as writing a story?

Coming up with a story is hard work. But translating is also very hard, as it means trying to stick to the original story as far as it is possible, yet making the language flow without becoming "constructed".

BINGO

Chicklet said:

Svenska, the only problem with your argument about Non-English is the originality of the stories. When people write more than one Gay Male story, they're writing original stories. Translating them feels too easy to me because you didn't come up with a new idea, just changed it into a different language.

Anyone else have an opinion about the posting of scores?

Click to expand...

Besides, why should "ignorance/prejudice/hatered" be "rewarded" by limiting gay and/or lesbian stories? I'm sure there are several authors who may not like a certain section of Lit. They may "force" themselves to write a story for the category, or they may ignore it all together and work harder elsewhere.

As Chicklet, and others, has/have stated, when someone translates a story they are NOT writing a new story. And, as Sven stated, it's not hard to translate a story. Not much work to it. But still, not all of us can do it and not all of us know people who will do it for us. Therefore, it's an unfair advantage.

I still don't agree. The thing I have against lesbian sex has nothing to do with hate or prejudice or ignorance, I just can't write a story about two women being attracted to each other, because I can't understand understand how anyone, man or woman, can be attracted to a woman! I'm not trying to put my own gender down, it's just that since I'm not attracted to women myself, I have big problems writing about the joys of a woman.

The only thing I can do is to hope for an immunity, so that I don't have to write about it. People who have no problem with this have an advantage over me. Isn't it then fair that I get an advantage when it comes to writing heterosexual, non-english stories?

Limiting that area is unfair. I can't write lesbian sex anymore than any of the english-only-speakers can write an original story in hungarian. Not out of hate. Not out of prejudice. Not out of ignorance. Just because I can't do it.

Whilst I can understand Svenskaflicka's point, that the work involved in translating is equal to writing a new story: although that is debatable, as it still does not involve the thought processes involved in developing a new story line, and new characters.

I think the central point is that the majority of people taking part are submitting work that they have asked someone else to translate for them.

Therefore I still stick by my "original story" proposal. If not question - if I turn my spell checker from English UK to English USA and use "idiomatic American English" instead of "idiomatic English English" can I call one a foriegn Language story - No it's OK I only used the example to make the point that this is a fraught question. -

There Chicklet problems from the outset <O> - the nearest I could get for an Asprin!

jon

Svenskaflicka said:

Isn't it then fair that I get an advantage when it comes to writing heterosexual, non-english stories?

Click to expand...

Since gay and lesbian stories are "singled out" in their own categories, technically every other category is a "hetero" one. The fact still remains that someone is copying the SAME story into another language, they are not writing a new story.

As someone else mentioned, anyone can write a story and find several categories it could fit in, but we're not allowed to resubmit the story into more than one category.

Not only do I think we shouldn't be allowed to resubmit stories to Non English for this contest, I think we shouldn't be allowed to resubmit stories to Non English at all. Otherwise...we should be allowed to resubmit any story into as many categories we see fit.

Oh, great, now you've done it!

You know, it really isn't nice of you to make this little blonde think so much in one and the same night. Now I've got a headache. (OK, maybe the lack of coffee has something to do with it too.)

Anyhow, I'm signing off for tonight. Will continue arguing tomorrow. I still think it would be unfair to cap the Non-english section, or limit it to orginial stories only.

Why should I have to write a lot of stories that the english-only-speakers would not get to enjoy???

Having page after page of "bitching and fighting" won't do this contest any good. People here have my opinion, now, and know where I stand. C'est la vie. That's enough.

Hey, all.
Well, I'm in, for the third year--even though I'm all but assured of not placing. I like having something to give a little sense of urgency. I'm a lazy bastard.

About the non-English thing:
It's always bugged me that one gets points for work they haven't done. For that reason, I think only the person who actually performs the translation should receive points. Ideally, to my mind, one could receive points for translating one's own story or stories so long as they haven't already gotten points for that work in this year's contest.

By way of example--one could translate one's own story posted last year into another language, taking care of the Non-English category but not taking points for it elsewhere. Or Chicklet could write a brand-new story and have Blessed Be translate it, but only BB would get points for it. Chicklet could still get points for it in its original category, but not in Non-E.

But two people in the contest could not both rack up huge points by translating each other's stories that are already posted to other categories and receiving points for them in multiple categories simultaneously.

It's not perfect, but it seems closer to giving equal credit for equal work to me.

About the score-board:
I think the biggest problem is that there's no way to start it early in the year without giving someone the option of joining at Thanksgiving with all the categories already filled. On the other hand, who cares? If people don't like knowing what they're up against, why enter a public contest? That seems silly to me.

On this one, I'm with Svenska--grow some balls already. Come on, lose with pride, like I do every year. It's not as hard as you'd think.

Immunities:
I think everyone ought to have to use it that week, or it goes away. Also, I don't think one should be able to erase it later. That goes against the whole point of lowering what they're worth. If you don't want to take a 2 in a category, then don't use your immunities. But it's chickenshit to put it up and then take it down later. It smacks of manipulation to me...nothing personal, Chicklet.

That's about it from my end. Have a good year, everyone.

RS

Truthfully, why are there limits?

And to be fair, then shouldn't there be limits on all?

And, couldn't someone do this:

Translated orginal story: I write it, SF translates it. I get two for writing, she gets one for translateing it for me. Credit to her must be given at time of posting in a little footnote. That would make up for our multilingual writers loseing points. Also, the same story could be posted untranslated, but not claimed for the contest?

Translated story, not new: I write it, SF translates it. I get one point for writing, she gets one for translateing it. Etc.

I think only the person who actually performs the translation should receive points. Ideally, to my mind, one could receive points for translating one's own story or stories so long as they haven't already gotten points for that work in this year's contest.

Click to expand...

This appeals to me as fair, however, it means I will have to use an immunity in this area since I am learning disablibled and try as I might have too much difficultly learning a new lang (tried French and Spanish).

Which means that while I might of otherwise found someone to traslate for me, now I would have to give up this area totally. Unless I used an imperfect translation program or simply lied.

Advantage??

Let me see if I've got this striaght? I didn't write my first story until April, I never tried for an immunity, almost everything I wrote was a very long story...not a bunch of short poems, almsot every story I wrote got a very positive reader ranking, yet Chicklet suggests I had an advantage?? Seems to me that getting the same points for a tiny poem as for a 5000~10,000 word story is an advantage that might be explored further.

Just for the record, my stories were mostly posted from Sept.-Dec.; did anyone expect me to psot my scores before that? Considering the huge point jumps I saw in late December from some people, I don't appreciate anyone pointing any fingers in my direction.

I would do away with the immunities if this is supposed to be writing contest, then add more point awards for actaully writing stories; points for 3 or 4 categories posted. I mean 3 catagories = x points; 6 catagories = y more points. This would open the competion up to more authors.

I'm tempted to suggest points for stories that achieve a certain ranking [as in readers actually like the stories]. The present system encourages people to turn out anything just to score points. The obvious problem with this is there is so much fraud already. All my stories have been hit many, many fraudlent votes this year...some authors might not be able to resist the temptation to vote against poeple competing in this contest.

Perhaps a bonus for cumluative ranking [avg rank of all stories submitted in 2003], or the number of 5-votes garnished would be a better bonus source. If only the 5-votes earned were counted, if would defeat 1-voting. I'd still like to for everyone to be able to see the vote-breakdown for each story so fraud voting would be more apparent to the writers and readership.

I think points for "E's" is a bad idea. Getting an 'E' is VERY arbitrary. People that are close to Laurel are much more likely to get an 'E' while stories that spend time in the top of the TOP LISTs rarely get them.

I feel simply translating one English story into another language should be the limit. To gain further points for "non-English" stories...they should be original stories written exclusively in Non-English. Being bi-lingual shouldn't be a license to double one's story points. People who's primarly language in non-English already have a serious handicap. Simply being bi-lingual shouldn't be a huge advandage.

I have no intention of entering this contest ever again, so my comments and observations are made in the interest of improving the contest...not gaining any advantage.

Hmm . . . so I've been hanging out on this site for two plus years now, and somehow, up until this week, I've been totally unaware of the Survivor contest. Although I have yet to actually submit anything here, I'm excited--I'm thinking it just might be the thing that motivates me to get off my ass and finish all those half-baked stories I have languishing on my hard drive.

Anyway, about this whole non-English thing--I know it's probably not really my business, but I thought I'd offer my take on the off-chance that another opinion might help . . . feel free to tell me to piss off and maybe come back when I'm an actual Literotica author or something .

I'm not going to argue that translating a piece of writing into another language is hard work. Clearly, skills that have taken years of discipline to attain are being utilized in the act of translating. However, I'm not sure this is really the issue. The point--at least I would think--is that they are not the same sort of skills required in crafting a story or poem; these being namely plot structuring, character development, narrative voice and word choice, etc. Basically, then, I would think the question is more a matter of what this competition is designed to be a contest of--one's willingness/ability to work hard in front of a computer or one's skill as a writer/author. From what I understand (in that Literotica is primarily a site for the publishing of original erotic writings), Literotica Survivor is a contest of one's writing skills. But maybe I'm totally wrong about this; I don't know. If I'm not, then I think the only non-English stories that would be eligible would be those that are original, not simply translated.

As for the argument that restricting the non-English category places her at an unfair disadvantage, Svenskaflicka cites her inability to write stories in the lesbian category and the fact that there are no point caps in this area (And I swear, Svenskaflicka, I'm not trying to stick my uppity nose in here and pick on you , I'm just calling it like I see it .) I don't think this inability to write lesbian erotica, based on, as you've said, an inability to relate/understand the characters' motivations, is a valid compararison to others' inability to translate stories. I say this because I think the ability to stretch our mental boundaries to encompass the thoughts and feelings of characters so unlike our real-life selves is a big part of what the craft of writing is about. When we lack the ability/skill/desire/whatever to do this, I think we ought to be susceptible to disadvantage in a contest of writing, because, at least in this case, our skill as a writer has broken down.

Besides, in terms of an inability to mentally/emotionally relate, I'd wager everyone has category hangups--I mean, I know there's no way I can ever write a loving wives story, for example.

Finally, I think your concern about original stories submitted as entries into the non-English category not reaching the English-only readership is not entirely founded--as I understand it, you wouldn't be restricted from translating stories for the site; they would merely be ineligible for points in both categories. Possibly you'd be unwilling to take the time to translate knowing you'd get no points from it--if you want to win the contest, it's only natural to want to conserve time and effort. Still, that would leave you with a choice, and really, I think that a restriction of one's "normal" readership in exchange for exposure to a new population of readers is almost the nature of this contest.

That is to say, I have never written a gay male story but I might be persuaded to do so for the sake of the contest. My regular readership (imagine, for a moment, that I have one ) might not be interested in such a story (being that they're not the ones competing in a writing contest, I guess they're entitled to their hangups.) So by writing in this category, I'm cutting myself off from a potentially large base of my "regular" readers in the interest of furthering my standing. But it's my choice.

Essentially, what I'm trying to say is that, yes, I think translating is hard work but, no, I don't think it involves the same set of skills that a competition that calls itself a contest of authors ought to reward. However, I do think that if it is decided to expand the scope of the contest's intent to encompass the skill of translating, PS's idea of 2 points for the author and 1 for the translator seems reasonable.

All that having been said, I apologize for rambling on and comandeering a thread on a subject I probably know nothing about. I meant no offense to anyone; hopefully none will be taken. Feel free to ignore me by all means . As for the Survivor contest on the whole, I'm glad that it exists, have the utmost respect for all previous winners, and am really looking forward to it this year. Thanks for letting me say my piece.

Wm_Sexspear said:

Seems to me that getting the same points for a tiny poem as for a 5000~10,000 word story is an advantage that might be explored further.

Click to expand...

I thought the points for a new poem was 2, whereas the points for a new story was 3? That's not the "same" points then. Also, why should poetry be excluded?

Just for the record, my stories were mostly posted from Sept.-Dec.; did anyone expect me to psot my scores before that? Considering the huge point jumps I saw in late December from some people, I don't appreciate anyone pointing any fingers in my direction.

Click to expand...

Unless I missed something earlier, who pointed what at you?

I'm tempted to suggest points for stories that achieve a certain ranking [as in readers actually like the stories]. The present system encourages people to turn out anything just to score points. The obvious problem with this is there is so much fraud already. All my stories have been hit many, many fraudlent votes this year...some authors might not be able to resist the temptation to vote against poeple competing in this contest.

Click to expand...

You said it yourself... Some people fall victim to fraudulent votes from people looking to sabotage them. It's been brought up by others that scores and the "H"ot stories change often. Why would we award more points in this area?

I think points for "E's" is a bad idea. Getting an 'E' is VERY arbitrary. People that are close to Laurel are much more likely to get an 'E' while stories that spend time in the top of the TOP LISTs rarely get them.

Click to expand...

So, you think Laurel is a fraud herself? You think she awards "E"s falsely?

Being bi-lingual shouldn't be a license to double one's story points.

Click to expand...

I do agree with this one...

I have no intention of entering this contest ever again...

Click to expand...

Why? You've given your input and made your suggestions for improvements for this year's contest... Why would you want to quit now? Didn't you have fun? Is this because you felt "singled out" or whatever?

WM's Great Suggestions

Wm_Sexspear said:

I would do away with the immunities if this is supposed to be writing contest, then add more point awards for actaully writing stories; points for 3 or 4 categories posted. I mean 3 catagories = x points; 6 catagories = y more points. This would open the competion up to more authors.

Click to expand...

I think that this has potential - What if Immunities didn't count towards the category bonuses?

Originally posted by Wm_Sexspear
I'm tempted to suggest points for stories that achieve a certain ranking [as in readers actually like the stories]. The present system encourages people to turn out anything just to score points. The obvious problem with this is there is so much fraud already. All my stories have been hit many, many fraudlent votes this year...some authors might not be able to resist the temptation to vote against poeple competing in this contest.

Click to expand...

I thought about this too but as he said, it seems like it would be too easy to cheat or hurt other people. What if we made a bonus for readers choice awards? Just a little place at the bottom? 3 pts for each award, or something?

Originally posted by Wm_SexspearBeing bi-lingual shouldn't be a license to double one's story points.

Click to expand...

This is exactly what I'm talking about.

Chicklet