The PF&D's BWE days

In this post I'll present the list of first PF&D's participants ending on WickedEve. In the next posts I'll present some of their poems, and the more significant threads.

At this time the list is under the constructions. I'll be adding a few at the time till I finish it. Then I'll remove this temporary info about the construction (or will replace it with a more updated one).
[tr][td]user name[/td][td]--[/td][td]join date[/td][td];[/td][td]notes[/td][/tr][tr][td]WickedEve[/td][td]--[/td][td]2001/10/20[/td][td];[/td][td];[/td][/tr][tr][td]Candy can[/td][td]--[/td][td]2001/10/16[/td][td];[/td][td]5 posts, 0 poems[/td][/tr][tr][td]voyergirl[/td][td]--[/td][td]2001/10/08[/td][td];[/td][td];[/td][/tr][tr][td]HomerPindar[/td][td]--[/td][td]2001/09/20[/td][td];[/td][td];[/td][/tr][tr][td]REDWAVE[/td][td]--[/td][td]2001/08/26[/td][td];[/td][td];[/td][/tr][tr][td]TheDR4KE[/td][td]--[/td][td]2001/08/05[/td][td];[/td][td];[/td][/tr][tr][td]KatPurrs[/td][td]--[/td][td]2001/07/23[/td][td];[/td][td];[/td][/tr][tr][td]*ladylove*[/td][td]--[/td][td]2001/07/16[/td][td];[/td][td]269 posts,8 poems, last poem posted on 2002-03-13[/td][/tr][tr][td]tigerjen[/td][td]--[/td][td]2001/07/08[/td][td];[/td][td];[/td][/tr][tr][td]Cordelia[/td][td]--[/td][td]2001/04/30[/td][td];[/td][td];[/td][/tr][tr][td]JUDO[/td][td]--[/td][td]2001/04/30[/td][td];[/td][td];[/td][/tr][tr][td]ericlove[/td][td]--[/td][td]2001/0/25[/td][td];[/td][td]12 posts; 0 poems.[/td][/tr][tr][td]lovetoread[/td][td]--[/td][td]2001-03-15[/td][td];[/td][td]extra active at GB[/td][/tr][tr][td]cymbidia[/td][td]--[/td][td]2001/03/07[/td][td];[/td][td]5 poems (all posted in 2001)[/td][/tr][tr][td]Suzi[/td][td]--[/td][td]2001/01/22[/td][td];[/td][td];[/td][/tr][tr][td]Rybka[/td][td]--[/td][td]2001/01/06[/td][td];[/td][td]+[/td][/tr][tr][td]Dillinger[/td][td]--[/td][td]2000/09/18[/td][td];[/td][td]7 poems[/td][/tr][tr][td]KillerMuffin[/td][td]--[/td][td]2000/07/29[/td][td];[/td][td]2 poems[/td][/tr][tr][td]English-Passion[/td][td]--[/td][td]2000/07/13[/td][td];[/td][td]34 posts, 2 poems.[/td][/tr][tr][td]WriterDom[/td][td]--[/td][td]2000/06/25[/td][td];[/td][td]first ever PF&D post (formal, a poll)[/td][/tr][tr][td]RisiaSkye[/td][td]--[/td][td]2000/05/01[/td][td];[/td][td]Active LitPoet, less on PF&D[/td][/tr][tr][td]Savage Kitten[/td][td]--[/td][td]2000/04/16[/td][td];[/td][td]0 poems (perhaps sends/publishes poems outside Literotica)[/td][/tr][tr][td]Whispersecret[/td][td]--[/td][td]2000/02/17[/td][td];[/td][td];[/td][/tr][tr][td]Laurel (Kitty Mama)[/td][td]--[/td][td]1999/08/27[/td][td];[/td][td]Literotica's creator and owner (0 poems; awards "E")[/td][/tr]

Here is the first thread ever on the PF&D

Poetry Alert (The Young Lions)

(almost) first thread: "Poetry Alert (...)"

champagne1982 said:

Here is the first thread ever on the PF&D

Poetry Alert (The Young Lions)

Click to expand...

Champagne, I am so glad for your contribution. However I saw more than one thread before Young lions, which is dated: 12-02-2001, 05:23 PM. Also, from the context one can see that it was not the first ever PF&D thread.

EDIT:__ Actually, champagne is right! The very first FG&D (true) post was the one mentioned by champagne, mainly Poetry Alert (The Young Lions) posted by Unmasked Poet on 12-02-2001, 05:23PM. There was only one formal post earlier on PF&D, titled A poetry forum?, posted by WriterDom on 11-12-2001. This was a poll on desirability of actually having PF&D. (Does it mean that Literotica went to the trouble of creating the forum, and only then asking there on PF&D if it is needed? It looks like this).
*** END OF EDIT ***

The originator Unmasked Poet (UP) of the thread "Poetry Alert" is post-WE. One may have an illusion that Umasked Poet (I don't like such a negative and pretentious nick) and daughter had started PF&D. Indeed, they acted for a while like they owned the place. But this is far from true (I mean about being the first participants, both are post-WE). I must say though that Unmasked Poet put solid effort into his opening post. But he also liked to write like this:

...illuminates the self worth verification all of us go through. Often no matter the complexity of our lives we also must accept our objectification, ...
​

Right, to accept our objectification we must illuminate the self worth verification...--of course.

*****

UP wrote: My first young lion is WickedEve. To this WickedEve reacts gracefully and modestly (BTW, Eve's motto was: save an apple, eat eve):

Well, a pat on the back can be nice. It lets me know that I've shown some improvement. But now that you've given me a pat on the back, and stroked my fur, and tickled my tummy, and... Oh, I'm sorry. I was fantasizing again. Anyway, it's time for me to stop wallowing in this moment of glory and get back to work. I've been reading and studying for long, long, long hours! It seems it's paid off... a little.​

Later, WickedEve would write that her poems at that time were junk. She was removing such poems even before she started to remove some of her good poems. I would appreciate if anybody could say more about the whole situation. But none of the WE's 16 poems praised by Unmasked Poet are listed today in WE's archive.

*****

I opened the PF&D page, and there were only 2 pages offered. Scary! But then I signed up for Literotica, and got the full option.

*****

I meant to list the early threads, and possibly to comment on them, I plan to do it, but I am sloooow, very slow.

Best regards, champagne, so nice to see you,

Poetry Alert--smithpeter

Since the poems by WE and listed by UP in Poetry Alert are gone, let's try the next UP's lion--smithpeter. This time, what a relief, the poems are in the archive.

smithpeter was in poetry an old lion already at the time. You can see from the archive that smithpeter was very prolific. He posted so many poems (of good quality) that he had to open two more accounts to store them sensibly. He was not playing any silly games with accounts. He just needed to organize his poems better.

smithpeter's poetic technique was good too except that he didn't apply it throughout his poem non-stop, consistently. In the poems which I have read there always were weaker moments; too bad (possibly I missed his best poems? he had written so much!). Otherwise he would be very-very good.

smithpeter died years ago. As long as I know he was the first to leave us on PF&D without return. I wish we would talk about poetry more. He and WickedEve were very good Internet friends, committed to each other and loyal.

Oh, well... let's go back to "Poetry Alert". I have read already the second UP's post (one about WE, the other one about sp). You can't learn anything useful to a working poet (so far) from such writing. You read and read such essay, and you're not poetry-wiser at all. (Often such writing only messes you up ). I must say that about 99.9% of critics are like this, not just UP. You have to learn from THE BEST poems, but it's not easy. You don't even know which poems are the best.

UM decided on a selection of 8 smithpeter's poems, and that (quote)--His best in my opinion: “The Longness of Liz.” And about the poem, UM had written (quote)--I enjoy this view, the appreciation of beauty is an individual thing with Liz I adopted sp’s view and I liked what I saw.

That's all from UM about the selection's top choice. Thus now let me take over (TODAY). This is indeed a very nice poem, it features an interesting character, it creates a nice, romantic view throughout the entire poem. It istarts with a nice title:

The Longness Of Liz​

You get the alliterations L-L and o-O, and even ss-z, the last one less obvious. I am using term alliteration very loosely. You're welcome to be more precise in a response (if you will). This melodic title goes hand in hand with an association: Longness and longing. Very nice.

Now a bit of the view from the poetic kitchen (if you don't like this kind of critics you truly advised to skip the rest of my post).

The poem assumes a poetic language. Thus "is" in the first line is dead wood, it kills poetry (just a bit; but a bit in poetry is a lot). Furthermore, this line is unnecessarily inelegant. This is not a way to talk about a woman. If a shock value was assumed, it was misplaced. The repetition of "long", just after the title, takes away some of the poetic impact. The title was so nice, and it is not so nice anymore.

You see, just one line and so many troubles. Poetry is not easy.

We get another "long" in line 3. Sometimes repetitions are great but here this 3-fold repetition hurts the poem. Think about easy elegant breast-style swimming (not about an olympic sprint). You kick with the legs, then arms push, then legs, then arms, etc. The leg kick is the strongest. After the leg kick you need to relax for a moment or else you waste the energy which went into the leg kick. In the poem the repetition of "long" in lines 1 and 3 is like hurried arms' action. It wastes the poetic energy stored in the title.

Line 5 ("Always the left side") is poetically poor, doesn't buy much artistically. In particular word "always" is weak.

The lines:


suffers from an overlap. The two lines say too much of the same. Unless there are special artistic considerations, the poem quietly keep the reader on the toes all the time, the poem has to move. Don't beat a horse to death.

I'll stop now. The poem is still nice. My critical comments assume that it is done with this understanding.

***********

In the past we did have some good discussions on PF&D. I hope that some will take place also in a non-distant future (perhaps too distant for me ).

Correction (a kind of)

I have edited my response (two posts above) to champagne's post. Have a look there--champagne was right (of course champagne was right! ).

It turns out that the BWE era had happened before PF&D was created, it was all simply Literotica. (Or is there more to it?). We should check the archived dates of the first poems on Literotica. (Too bad, just a little, that some of them were removed).

beasts--intended or a typo? A poll.

Check smithpeter's poem

The Longness Of Liz​

Read in particular lines 5 and 6 of stanza 2:

Her beasts are shaped,
For champagne glasses.​

Is word beasts a metaphor for breasts or is it simply a typo?

I thought I will present arguments for each answer but decided to leave the question for you virgin. Thus let me ask you more precisely in a poll style:

1. Is the poem better with word beasts (as it is in the print now)?
2. Is the poem better with word breasts (perhaps the intended spelling)?

The poetry hides in the comparisons, i.e. in differences.

Senna Jawa said:

Check smithpeter's poem

The Longness Of Liz​

Read in particular lines 5 and 6 of stanza 2:

Her beasts are shaped,
For champagne glasses.​

Is word beasts a metaphor for breasts or is it simply a typo?

I thought I will present arguments for each answer but decided to leave the question for you virgin. Thus let me ask you more precisely in a poll style:

1. Is the poem better with word beasts (as it is in the print now)?
2. Is the poem better with word breasts (perhaps the intended spelling)?

The poetry hides in the comparisons, i.e. in differences.

Click to expand...

Here is smithpeter's response to UM's "Alert...":

I also want to say that UP did good job selecting the best of smithpeter's poems among the eight of smithpeter's poems on the UP's list. I even wonder if this was the very best poem by smithpeter ever. In view of his huge output--unlikely, there should be a better one just by the strength of the large numbers.

I think it is quite worthwhile to remember and commemorate those members whose portfolios have completed in this life: Smithpeter, Rybka, Safebet, and Eagleeyez. Are there others of whom I am not aware?

playcatch said:

I think it is quite worthwhile to remember and commemorate those members whose portfolios have completed in this life: Smithpeter, Rybka, Safebet, and Eagleeyez. Are there others of whom I am not aware?

Click to expand...

Yes, it is quite worthwhile, step by step (I am slow, I will not get far without others joining the effort).

Let us remember about another Literotician who left us. She was a very highly respected and liked poetry critic on Literotica (while she was not posting here any poems). She was leaving her comments under the poems in the archive rather than on PF&D (am I right?). I was on Literotica on and off, so unfortunately I didn't have any interaction with her, really too bad. Perhaps someone can write about Her.

Report, 2014-12-08 (including a bit of historic mess)

I have collected all 25 Literoticians who joined Literotica before WickedEve, and who had appeared in the first PF&D threads:

I listed the 25 at the top of this thread above. WickedEve and two other participants of the latter thread already had appeared in the former one, and the other participants of that latter thread (including UP) joined Literotica after WickedEve. I hope that most of the BWE participants are already presented. If you find another than let me know.

This early list is (relatively) so small that it includes all participants BWE, and also some details. In the later lists, AWE, we have to skip participants which didn't make much impact on poetry at Literotica. In the case of the border cases this must involve somewhat arbitrary judgement but that's life. Hardly anything is perfect--perfectness doesn't even exist in life. Even when some absolute authorities have decided on fibonacci poems (1+1+2+3+5+8+5+3+2+1+1) one may always ask why not prime poems (2+3+5+7+11+7+5+3+2) or even (2+3+5+7+11+13+11+7+5+3+2) . So be it.

==========================================

As champagne1982 has already implied, we have a bit of an historic mess. Indeed, the early PF&D has happened not at the time of WE joining Literotica but afterwards. The true first event for PF&D should be the UP's thread. However, the archived poems predated that thread (naturally). Thus we can talk of BWE and AWE in terms of poetry on Literotica rather than PF&D. So, this is fine. And anyway, the other history, over 2000 years ago, was messy too, and its date is known to be quite arbitrary. We at Literotica are in a good/bad company, have your pick.

Senna Jawa said:

Yes, it is quite worthwhile, step by step (I am slow, I will not get far without others joining the effort).

Let us remember about another Literotician who left us. She was a very highly respected and liked poetry critic on Literotica (while she was not posting here any poems). She was leaving her comments under the poems in the archive rather than on PF&D (am I right?). I was on Literotica on and off, so unfortunately I didn't have any interaction with her, really too bad. Perhaps someone can write about Her.

Click to expand...

Who was that? By left us, you mean she died? I do not know all of the names of everyone who has written here, so rather than Her, it's helpful if you use a name. There have been a lot of hers here.

playcatch said:

Who was that? By left us, you mean she died?

Click to expand...

Yes.

I do not know all of the names of everyone who has written here, so rather than Her, it's helpful if you use a name.

Click to expand...

I'd use it, of course, if I knew it. Nobody else was praised for thoughtful and kind comments so much. I only caught the echo. (If I were able to continue this project I would run into Her name sooner or later).

Currahee_Gent said:

I am WriterDom.I don’t know how much help I can be as far as the history goes. It was a long time ago.

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goodness! well, despite not being here then, may i offer a warm welcome back?

Thanks. About all I remember was we made ourselves pests on one of the existing forums. Seems like it was Story Feedback? And the story people were more than happy to rid themselves of the disruptive poets.

I was not BWE but look back fondly on those early days. I arrived with no poetic experience, produced some frightful clangers but WE was unfailingly encouraging, as was Angeline. They, and others, spurred me on to try harder.

The Unmasked Poet was here a few years ago. I don't think anyone else BWE has been here for years.