Is incest really taboo?
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Hypoxia
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Vicky's offspring were:
Victoria, German Empress
Edward VII
Alice, Grand Duchess of Hesse
Alfred, Duke of Saxe-Coburg and Gotha
Princess Helena
Princess Louise, Duchess of Argyll
Prince Arthur, Duke of Connaught and Strathearn
Prince Leopold, Duke of Albany
Princess Beatrice
So her chubby imperial sonny-boy would be Edward VII, King of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland and Emperor of India.
As for disgusting, I'll rate various religious and political acts way up there.
CuteSlaveLisa
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Vicki and Albert were first cousins.
Thier Child / Titled Grandchildren
Lil' Vic's boy was Kaiser Willy 2, her girl was Queen Sophie (Greece).
Eddie's boy was King George 5, her girl was Queen Maud (Norway).
Alice's girl was Tsarina Alex. She married her First Cousin.
Alf's girl was Queen Marie (Romania)
Helena had children, none were titled.
Louise had no children.
Art who married his first cousin...
Art's girl was Crown Princess Margaret (Sweeden).
Beatie's girl was Queen Vicki (Spain).
Remember the elder Vicki was known for her conservative moral values.
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Lisa Ann
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Hypoxia
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LIT incest is exciting. IRL incest (*) is mostly rape. Murder is taboo, illegal, disgusting, and much too common; but even non-murderers consume literature and other entertainments about murder. Same with entertainments about other crimes. Should those be banned?
'Tabu' means sacred and prohibited. Deeds not to do; places not to go; words not to emit. Those are classic. Interracial sex; kinks & queerness; body styles and decorations -- these are taboo to *some* who may react violently. Social response to incest seems almost tame in comparison.
What do you find most taboo?
_____
(*) Incest is hazy. See What Is Incest?
CuteSlaveLisa
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Rape is rape, it is a criminal act described by a legal system as forceable or underage sex, all three of those terms being subject to differing definitions.
Using your definition Incest is sex with a family member. Some jurisdictions allow first cousins to marry, some don't.
First up as a US citizen I try to obey its many laws and am fully aware of the consequences of not obeying a law.
Neither rape or incest are immoral if you use Christian scripture as the basis of morality. Scripture says that a woman is the property of her father until her ownership is (usually contractually, by way of a marriage contract) transferred to her husband. Adultery which is immoral is a property crime, a form of theft. I am not saying that societies have not evolved from this position, but scripture says what scripture says.
JMO, and only on the topic of adult siblings the civil authorities dont investigate or prosecute consensual relationships. (Not to say political exceptions are not made.) If two people are not involving anybody else in thier relationship NOBODY KNOWS if they are siblings.
Unless you are running for Governor in Colorado or Mayor in Seattle nobody is following you around too see if you are partaking of cannabis (which IS a violation of Federal Drug law.)
You and your adult boy or girlfriend live together, nobody checks to see if you are related. Heck siblings likley have drivers licences with matching last names.
Nobody can say how prevalent it is IRL. What is prosecuted is the civil crime of rape, and it adds to the marketability of the reporting of the crime if the crime is committed by a family member against another family member. BECAUSE it's a violation of norms, family members are supposed to look after each other not victimise each other.
As supporting evidence I submit the large number of non sexual crimes where family members relationships are disclosed although they have no bearing on the criminality of the conduct.
Man bites dog is breaking news, dog bites man notsomuch.
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Lisa Ann
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You may be right, but all it takes is one upset relative or childhood friend or nosy ex-neighbor or one person matching family photos on Facebook and then ten tons of Bad gets dumped from a great height. And in this age of social media sewers, it's not just a matter of moving to the next town to escape.
Cousins? Maybe. Immediate family, even if consensual? Still taboo in most of the world.
Not a moral judgement, just reality.
Afterthought. Again, not a judgement, but if incest is not taboo and if it is so rarely prosecuted, then why do people bother to hide it?
Cousins? Maybe. Immediate family, even if consensual? Still taboo in most of the world.
Not a moral judgement, just reality.
Afterthought. Again, not a judgement, but if incest is not taboo and if it is so rarely prosecuted, then why do people bother to hide it?
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CuteSlaveLisa
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In reverse order JMO, it is Taboo. It is Taboo BECAUSE it is natural, there is no Taboo against the Mullet ;-) or stepping off of a tall cliff because it's just not natural. Also Taboo or not, having sex with your brother is technically illegal many/most places, and people have opinions about the subject.
A lot/most of what I write has to do with the idea that if you and your sibling are raised by caring, supportive, nurturing parents who teach thier children to take care of each other, to be each others best friend. If you have a similar maturity level (and girls mature faster than boys)... If you have similar beliefs, experiences, socialization, likes and dislikes (which is really likley if you share both nature and nurture). If mom and dad taught both of you the same regarding the way people should relate to each other dating, coupling, and raising a family. Mom and dad unwittingly created a PERFECT life partner for each. One so much more likley than average to last.
Mom and dad created the ideal boy/ man for me just before they created me. He was my helper, my friend and my best supporter for 18 years before he was my lover. We don't pretend we are husband and wife but I know siblings IRL that do and have sucessfully, in one case for 30ish years.
Facebook and social media have destroyed lots of people's lives. Some maybe deserved it most were just careless. To the best of my knowlege Facebook doesn't subpoena photos or diary entrys.
People having trouble getting into college... College grads who have trouble getting jobs... People running for elected office... Teachers... Nothing unique there. On the other hand some people seem to be made of Teflon.
My brother and I are business partners, and it's good business to keep one's business and private lives separate. I might lose many/all my customers if Hillary supporters knew I voted for Donald or if Trumpites knew I donated to Clinton's campaign, I might lose both if they suspected I supported candidates from both parties or an Independent. That's just one example.
Again JMO much of what is sold like snake oil as morality is the opposite...
That's my pet-peeve, people who don't read the Bible but think, for example, alcohol is one of the seven deadly sins... Or that the ONLY valid form of marriage is one-man one-woman when seven other kinds are regulated and thereby authorized. Oh, and consent of the woman, that can be inferred by fathers consulting thier daughters, but dad explicitly has the final say.
Much of what is sold as morality is IMHO attempting to obtain an advantage over others. I know of a tragic IRL story, a wealthy family where two siblings who have many friends who are homosexual 'outed' a third sibling to thier grandparents DURING family negotiations regarding estate planning and succession plans for the family business.
They had known for years. Morality. Bullshit. It gave the two control over the plan and the third child could sit down shut up and accept it or walk away.
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Lisa Ann
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Zeb_Carter
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There local jurisdictions where Adultery is a crime. Some southern states still have it on their books at a felony. Others as a misdemeanor. And still a lot of marriage vows have the clause about adultery or forsaking all other included in them.
So in essence even that is taboo.
SimonDoom
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This is an excellent and subtle point. I totally agree. Taboos exist not to prevent people from doing things that are obviously wrong, like murder, but to prevent people from doing things they might otherwise want to do . . . like having sex with that hot person across the room who just happens to be your sibling. It's a fundamental fact of life that people want to get it on with each other. It's how were wired. When society puts up roadblocks, it makes the pursuit and act of getting it on that much more erotic. Taboo is a crucial element of the erotic appeal of incest stories.
About mullets: if there is no taboo against mullets, there SHOULD be, even though its evils are completely obvious.
jaF0
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Why are people so obsessed with Goo ...? Why can't they just say 'search'?
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I guess we need to go back to the beginning and define ‘taboo’. One definition I think is fair is: a human activity or custom that is sacred or forbidden based on moral judgment, religious beliefs, or cultural norms.
Let’s also, to make it simple, limit our definition of incest to that within the first degree – father/daughter, mother/son, brother/sister. Some societies take it much further, but let’s keep it simple and clear.
I would note that the definition I cited does not include any mention of laws. Laws are often passed without a religious basis. Oral and anal sex were felonies in some states – still are, I suspect – without any Biblical injunction against them. Let’s leave laws aside. Granted, I did ask why people hide incest and much of that is indeed due to legal prohibitions. But let’s put legality in a different box from morality. There are legal considerations and then there are moral considerations; sometimes they overlap.
Judaeo-Christian religious laws are indeed quite clear WRT banning incest. Leviticus Ch 18 is mainly about that and chunks of Deuteronomy (Chap 27, verses 22 and 23) explicitly bans sex between a man and his sister or mother-in-law. Leviticus Ch 20 actually specifies death as a punishment. Mind you, both of those books tend to be pretty dour at best.
But we cannot blame the Judaeo-Christian churches for incest taboos. Not solely, that is. With some exceptions, virtually every society around the world has traditionally held incest to be wrong. One cannot lump all of the hundreds of pre-Columbus North American native cultures together, but certainly a very large proportion seemed to have held incest as taboo. The Hindu Indian sub-continent certainly did. Both ancient Romans and Greeks viewed it as wrong. Pre-republic Chinese, ditto. There is something about incest which seems to unite most of humanity. That's a unanimity which goes much further than ill-conceived haircuts.
Note I am not arguing against incest, nor trying to shame people involved in consensual adult incestuous relationships. But the original question was simple and clear – Is incest really taboo? It’s harder to get much simpler than that and hard to come up with any other answer for the majority of cultures on the planet than Hell, yes, it’s really taboo!
Next question might be, is it wrong? That one perhaps offers more room for debate.
Let’s also, to make it simple, limit our definition of incest to that within the first degree – father/daughter, mother/son, brother/sister. Some societies take it much further, but let’s keep it simple and clear.
I would note that the definition I cited does not include any mention of laws. Laws are often passed without a religious basis. Oral and anal sex were felonies in some states – still are, I suspect – without any Biblical injunction against them. Let’s leave laws aside. Granted, I did ask why people hide incest and much of that is indeed due to legal prohibitions. But let’s put legality in a different box from morality. There are legal considerations and then there are moral considerations; sometimes they overlap.
Judaeo-Christian religious laws are indeed quite clear WRT banning incest. Leviticus Ch 18 is mainly about that and chunks of Deuteronomy (Chap 27, verses 22 and 23) explicitly bans sex between a man and his sister or mother-in-law. Leviticus Ch 20 actually specifies death as a punishment. Mind you, both of those books tend to be pretty dour at best.
But we cannot blame the Judaeo-Christian churches for incest taboos. Not solely, that is. With some exceptions, virtually every society around the world has traditionally held incest to be wrong. One cannot lump all of the hundreds of pre-Columbus North American native cultures together, but certainly a very large proportion seemed to have held incest as taboo. The Hindu Indian sub-continent certainly did. Both ancient Romans and Greeks viewed it as wrong. Pre-republic Chinese, ditto. There is something about incest which seems to unite most of humanity. That's a unanimity which goes much further than ill-conceived haircuts.
Note I am not arguing against incest, nor trying to shame people involved in consensual adult incestuous relationships. But the original question was simple and clear – Is incest really taboo? It’s harder to get much simpler than that and hard to come up with any other answer for the majority of cultures on the planet than Hell, yes, it’s really taboo!
Next question might be, is it wrong? That one perhaps offers more room for debate.
CuteSlaveLisa
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"Is Incest Taboo" was the OPs question, and Tarnished Penny answerd it if you accept Cultural Norms as a basis of Taboo then yes it is Taboo.
So where did these Cultural Norms come from.
What many others have said is that Incest is immoral. I guess that depends on your basis for morality, but if it is Christian scripture there is a huge gap between what is culturally accepted as being scriptually based and what is actually contained in the Bible.
Adulery is immoral according to the Bible. But the people who wrote those passages lived in a different world than we do. Adultery was theft. You don't steal your neighbors cow, wife, daughter, oxcart, etc. Much of the supposed prohibition against incest is actually a prohibition against stealing the property (wife or daughter) of your father, uncle, brother, etc.
Biblical scholars come to this conclusion because the same words in Hebrew are used in sexual and non sexual contexts. Like Immanuel Kant said an idea must be able to be universalized to be legitimate or correct.
Oh, and the fact that many of the revered founders of the religion like Abraham (who begott Isaac with his sister Sarah) and Jacob (begot the leaders of all twelve tribes with his two first cousins, who were sisters, and thier handmaids who were a second set of sisters) would have violated tenants of the religion they founded if read in the alternative.
In the ancient Middle East there was a tradition of Warriors taking young boys or men as apprentices, sort of squires with benefits. The entire point of the Laws given in Leviticus and Deuteronomy was to maintain the Israelites as a separate people. To prevent assimilation.
There were no prisons back then, people had the protection of thier family or tribe. The ultimate penalty was to be cast out to lose that protection, Then thier blood was on thier hands. They could be killed without penalty. That is where the concept of sanctuary cities comes from.
Biblical scholars belive this is true because the same Hebrew words are used to describe the prohibitions against idolatry as wearing linen and cotton together, working on Saturday, shaving, drinking water before you give your ox or horse a drink, having sex with your menstruating wife, eating a cheeseburger or shrimp etc. To be logically consistant you would have to execute Michaelangelo for painting the Sistine chapel.
"Is Incest wrong" was not asked by the OP. Obviously anything illegal carries with it the possibility of legal sanction. Anything against social norms carrys with it the possibility of ostracision.
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Lisa Ann
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jaF0
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Oh gawd another fucking thumper!!! Can't we just outlaw thumpers and deport them to some desolate island in the Southern Hemisphere?
CuteSlaveLisa
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I define a thumper pajorativly as someone who claims a moral superiority to others because of what they think a book they either did not read or do not comprehend says. ;-)
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Lisa Ann
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Agreed
curioustxn
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Sexual relations between family members, like many things, while illegal, is often overlooked or tolerated. In some places, sex between any family member(s) is considered illegal and taboo, while in other places, it is only considered illegal between immediate family members such as parent and children, or blood related siblings. For example: in some states, (and countries), sex between parent and offspring is illegal, while first cousins are allowed to marry. Even in some place around the world, sex between aunt/uncle and niece/nephew is allowed.
In the real world, many things are illegal, but doesn't stop people from indulging in activities that are considered illegal, or unacceptable to other people. Marijuana in parts of the US are a perfect example. Even though federally illegal, some states allow it openly. The same thing could be said of incest. It's what's tolerated or acceptable locally.
I suspect incest is practiced more often than we know, or even suspect. Families who indulge in incest, why would they openly expose themselves to other people's judgment or prosecution? Often we see how disgusting or immoral someone thinks it is, but in a loving and supportive family, how is it a bad thing?
If it is consensual, how does it harm anyone?
In the real world, many things are illegal, but doesn't stop people from indulging in activities that are considered illegal, or unacceptable to other people. Marijuana in parts of the US are a perfect example. Even though federally illegal, some states allow it openly. The same thing could be said of incest. It's what's tolerated or acceptable locally.
I suspect incest is practiced more often than we know, or even suspect. Families who indulge in incest, why would they openly expose themselves to other people's judgment or prosecution? Often we see how disgusting or immoral someone thinks it is, but in a loving and supportive family, how is it a bad thing?
If it is consensual, how does it harm anyone?
Hypoxia
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Reactions to some of the above:
- Biblical rules don't apply to most of humanity.
- Murder is not *obviously* bad. It's required in some societies, as revenge or purity killings.
- Cousin marriage is common in much of the world -- ask Darwin, Poe, Einstein, Giuliani -- and even widely expected.
- Avuncular (uncle or aunt) marriage is expected in some societies.
- Some jurisdictions define 'incest' (banned relations) to include step-kin, current and ex in-laws, and others with zero shared DNA.
- Most IRL incest is dad, grandpa, big brother, or uncle raping an underage girl. They are power figures, not differing much from rape by teacher, pastor, counselor, or guardian.
- 'Tabu' is literally 'prohibited'. Lots of stuff is prohibited. Many taboos and other rules, mores, and laws are commonly ignored -- more than we realize. Ubiquitous surveillance might catch many or all violation. Will that be good?
- The past is a different world and so will be the future. Don't expect taboos to remain static.
CuteSlaveLisa
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cyberking001
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I will not comment on the legality or the morality of incest.
The basic concern, and why some countries make incest illegal,
is that continued relations between close blood relatives tend
to pass along recessive genes, which are usually weeded out
among people who are not closely related.
As a result, children of an incestuous relationship can carry
diseases, disfigurements or disabilities, which would not be
so common among people who do not share a close background.
This is similar to close inbreeding among animals, which often
results in babies who are diseased or disfigured.
As for the legality or morality, each must decide on his or her own.
However, there are two basic rules which govern any sexual relationship:
1. Both parties must be of legal age and of sound mind (which includes impairment).
2. The act must be consensual for both (or all) people involved.
After that, people will have to act on their own instincts.
You will also notice that I have not mentioned the Bible in this reply.
My guidance from the Bible is simple --
Do unto others as you would have others do unto you.
Sam
The basic concern, and why some countries make incest illegal,
is that continued relations between close blood relatives tend
to pass along recessive genes, which are usually weeded out
among people who are not closely related.
As a result, children of an incestuous relationship can carry
diseases, disfigurements or disabilities, which would not be
so common among people who do not share a close background.
This is similar to close inbreeding among animals, which often
results in babies who are diseased or disfigured.
As for the legality or morality, each must decide on his or her own.
However, there are two basic rules which govern any sexual relationship:
1. Both parties must be of legal age and of sound mind (which includes impairment).
2. The act must be consensual for both (or all) people involved.
After that, people will have to act on their own instincts.
You will also notice that I have not mentioned the Bible in this reply.
My guidance from the Bible is simple --
Do unto others as you would have others do unto you.
Sam
Redlace90
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And with good reason!!
Hypoxia
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Good. Laws and moralities vary widely by time and place and attitude.
I doubt that's the historical basis. I think it more a recognition of power imbalance and abuse within families, similar to The Church a millennium ago imposing clerical celibacy to thwart priestly dynasties. Historically, inbreeding kept power within the ruling circle. That tracks all the way to WWI, where Europe's belligerent monarchs were first cousins. Prohibiting commoner incest reduces the competition. Not that kin-fucking goes away. It's just no longer acceptable.
Non-genetic disease, malnutrition, and environmental factors, historically cause more infant disabilities than over-inbreeding. Except the Hapsburgs.
That actually dates to the Code of Hammurabi, or earlier in Egypt, and later by Confucius. "If you shit on others, they'll shit on you, so don't," seems obvious.
jaF0
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Unless you're Amish.
Hypoxia
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Or British. But I digress. Search for 'incest' on www.tvtropes.org and see how musch fun family can and can't have. Under TwinCest, the hottest may be this:
In The Faerie Queene (1590) the giantess Argante commits twincest with her brother Ollyphant before they are born!! They mingle "in fleshly lust" before in the womb and emerge clasped in the act. Also, they're themselves the product of incest.
I dunno if LIT's under-18 rule extends to the unborn. That would be a test. Is it okay if they're Amish? Or British? Set it in Windsor Castle.suzielovescum
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Thank you for sharing this, I also have loved my brother in perhaps a taboo way, some time ago now. We have moved on and have a normal relationship, we don't talk only at Christmas and Birthdays, but I fondly remember the excitement and the ways we got around our parents finding us, joined at the groin or groin and mouth every day twice if we could during our teens.
pornochic
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certainly taboo, probably unwise. Things happened in our family that I still fantasize about (I don't want that reality anymore though), and it's probably why I'm an unattached sex addict today.
dad, brother, and masturbated/fantasized with sister
dad, brother, and masturbated/fantasized with sister
