Women:

SimonDoom said:

The differences between countries is part of what makes me question whether we can make a generalization about men being more uncomfortable with showing their penises than before. Is swimwear for me in Australia and the UK more conservative than it was in the 1970s? As an American, I don't know.

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Competition swimwear is more conservative because some technical fabrics have less drag than human skin.

In the UK? Many men are still wearing the swimwear they bought in the 1980s.

Seriously - swimwear for men is what you are comfortable wearing. Because the sea temperature in the UK is rarely warm enough to stay in long in minimal swimwear, wet or dry suits are common. But when we go to Spain, Cyprus, Turkey? The minimum to protect our modesty OR floppy shorts. European nudist beaches are popular with British males - for the views.

French nudist beach:

SimonDoom said:

The differences between countries is part of what makes me question whether we can make a generalization about men being more uncomfortable with showing their penises than before. Is swimwear for me in Australia and the UK more conservative than it was in the 1970s? As an American, I don't know.

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Back in the seventies down the local pool, most males all ages wore Speedos. For a while there, some boy's togs had a 'modesty panel' across the front, to cover the bulge. Then longer board shorts - boardies - migrated from the surf culture (long down to the knee, to prevent board rash), but not so much into the equally mixed boy/girl groups. If I recall correctly through the blur of dope, it was usually the less secure kids, the slightly overweight, who favoured boardies. The fit amongst us just kept on with Speedos. Pretty obvious what that was all about.

Nowadays the noticeable thing is the far smaller beach population compared to 20-30 years ago - all the fat kids are indoors. But the teenagers who were in the water? Same boardies as before, but you wouldn't find a teenager in Speedos (aka budgie smugglers). They're the domain of the ultra fit (but even then, less so) and us old farts who'll never change.

Women's bikini cuts - on the whole, higher cut on the waist, some skimpier, most much the same.

The beach is the great leveller, and cold water the great equaliser. No male has got much to show when the water's cold. Women, on the other hand... wrap 'emselves up in towels pretty damn fast!

LoquiSordidaAdMe said:

Now that I think about it, I wonder if the same phenomenon isn't at least partially responsible for decreasing modesty in women.

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I was thinking about this when I was watching a late night show on television. All of the men were conservatively dressed ... the most liberal of them dispensed with the tie and maybe a jacket, but didn't have much skin showing. On the other hand, the lady guests were showing a lot of leg, shoulder, and often as much tit as they could get away with on network television. There are obviously two standards of modesty for attire here. Maybe it has a lot to do with women having to market their image as sexually attractive people, whereas men don't (at least to the same extent).

jehoram said:

I was thinking about this when I was watching a late night show on television. All of the men were conservatively dressed ... the most liberal of them dispensed with the tie and maybe a jacket, but didn't have much skin showing. On the other hand, the lady guests were showing a lot of leg, shoulder, and often as much tit as they could get away with on network television. There are obviously two standards of modesty for attire here. Maybe it has a lot to do with women having to market their image as sexually attractive people, whereas men don't (at least to the same extent).

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One of our top male TV presenters did a little experiment on exactly this:

http://www.smh.com.au/entertainment...ars-same-suit-for-a-year-20141115-11ncdz.html

Simon a good question (a good question is any question that forces me to think). To start with I was born in 1947 (I still do 30 pushup every other day and my chest sticks out farther than my stomach). I regularly wore tight bathing suits (showing the outline of my penis) during the 1950s and into the 1960s. My mother bought them for me. I was comfortable wearing them and was not unusual as other males wore them also. Some males did wear the baggier box shorts, but not all did. During the later 60s and into the 70s I wore short cutoff shorts something like this: https://d6.static.media.condenast.ru/tatler/e7eabfee0aed8b878888493feff36e17.jpg/7b015be9/o/w1023. That’s not me in the picture. Eventually I found it more and more difficult to find tight bathing suits for men. I also went by the link “Evolution of men’s swimwear in the last 100 years” which I am re-linking to here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=trKKk-7xgXg. Then there is Cary Grant and Randolph Scott shown here wearing tight bathing suits: https://i.pinimg.com/736x/e7/49/ec/e749ec6c7a51205f6254d2ed437d83f3--cary-grant-work-outs.jpg and this picture I found of 1920s rowers: https://i.pinimg.com/736x/9d/e3/9e/...2acaed1f8--mens-bathing-suits-vintage-men.jpg. Now that I thought of it, it may have been more accurate for me to write that starting in the 1980s some men became uncomfortable with the showing of the outline (the covered shape) of their penis, meaning that some were already uncomfortable with that. It does seem that men, in the US, have been uncomfortable with showing the outline of their penis whether it has been since the 1980s or before. In any case it seems that men have, on average, become more modest in regard to the bathing suit their wear. You write “Although running shorts were skimpier in the 70s than they are now, the big difference isn't that longer shorts show less penis, it's that they show less leg” even in that case it shows that men, at least in the US, are more modest than before.

It may be that men in other countries are more comfortable than men in the US in showing the outline of their penis, but then I can expand my question as to why men in the US are less comfortable to show the outline of their penis than men in the other countries.

Φως του φεγγαριού και Τριαντάφυλλα,

Electric Blue, I’ve never realized where you are from before. But, your comment #203 is particularly interesting to me as it has been my impression that men in your country still wore tight bathing suits.

Jehoram, as to your comment #204 about “. . . lady showing a lot of leg, shoulder . . .” here is an example although it may be extreme: https://i.ytimg.com/vi/lw9ojjDFpSU/maxresdefault.jpg.

Moonlight and Roses,

I want to get back to the comparison of women’s and men’s modesty. In comment #187 I wrote that in the future women might be willing to go nude to a “normal” beach while young men will still be wearing still wearing long, baggy bathing suits that come down to their knees and which do not even hint that these men have a penis. Also in comment #191 I linked to videos comparing women’s and men’s bathing suits. I am most familiar with beaches on the east coast of the US and in going to them it amazes me that the bathing suits worn by young women are so much smaller (maybe one-third the size) as bathing suits worn by young men even though in most places women are required by law to cover their nipples. Are men the most modest sex and why would that be?

Moonlight and Roses,

MoonlightandRoses said:

... Are men the most modest sex and why would that be?

Moonlight and Roses,

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I think you are confusing issues with that post. What might be the situation on a US East Coast beach isn't the same on the West Coast and certainly isn't in other countries.

It's not 'men' as in all men everywhere.

It's just a passing fashion trend in part of the USA.

BUT - If men expose their primary sexual characteristics somewhere that isn't a nudist beach they are likely to be arrested for indecency or accused of being a flasher. US society seems to treat women's sexual parts as artistic and men's as offensive. Just look around the Literotica forums. There are many more threads devoted to women's sexual parts than to men's.

Oggbashan, you write that “What might be the situation on a US East Coast beach isn't the same on the West Coast and certainly isn't in other countries,” but you didn’t say what certainly isn’t the situation in other countries. According to Electric Blue men in the country he lives in now typically wear bathing suits similar to what I see on the east coast of the US. Further Jehoram pointed out that on a late night show the men didn’t have much skin showing while the lady guests show much more. The videos I linked to did not specify the east coast of the US, but they showed that now typically women wear less to the beach than men. What is that like in the country you live in? In many places woman are required by law to cover their tops, so it is not necessarily the case that women wear tops because of modesty. In the country you live in, among young adults, who typically wear smaller bottoms, young women or young men. My experience is that many more women wear thongs than men do, how is that in the country you live in? I don’t know anywhere where a man would be arrested for wearing anything that shows the outline of his penis. It is certainly not “. . . a passing fashion trend in part of the USA,” it has been going on for 40 years. You did not answer my question – do you feel that “. . . men the most modest sex and why would that be?” With the exception of covering nipples which is in many places legally required for women but not for men, who in your experience is more willing to expose more skin, young women or young men?

Moonlight and Roses,

That's a lot of questions. I live in England by the sea, looking out over the beach.

Men on that beach wear everything from full wet suits to speedos. Some wear longer shorts. Some wear swimwear as minimal as any woman's lower bikini - just a pouch in front. They are rare.

The arrests I was talking about were for wearing NOTHING, not an outline of a penis. But the nudist beach a quarter of an hour from my house? Both sexes wear nothing all year round. Several of them went into the sea on Christmas Day and New Year's Day - naked. They weren't in the sea long. It was too cold.

Modesty? I don't think it is a factor. A naked male is more likely to be arrested in the UK than a naked woman except at organised events. In 2017 our local community has had naked bike rides, naked 5K races, naked zombies... No one was arrested at any of those events except the usual abusive drunks who weren't part of the event.

Recently a man walked naked from Lands End in Cornwall to John O'Groats in Scotland. He was arrested several times but wasn't charged with anything because he was doing it to raise money for charity.

A few local people object to people wearing nothing but swimwear in our main street. Why? It's only fifty yards from the beach. Most locals don't mind. But people wearing swimwear away from the beach has been a topic of debate in the local press and at our council meetings for over 150 years. The usual end of such debates - 'Get over it! We're a seaside town.'

In England, Wales and Scotland but NOT all of Northern Ireland attitudes to nudity and minimal clothing are much more relaxed than they appear to be in the USA. If the weather is hot by UK standards people of both sexes will strip off to an absolute minimum even in city parks. If there is water? They may go in, naked, despite thousands of people nearby.

The USA seems to still have a puritanical attitude to public nudity that doesn't exist to such an extent in the UK and most of Europe (or Australia).

What men and women wear on a beach here is a matter of personal choice, or current fashion, not modesty.

This time of year? Full length dry or wet suits are normal for our windsurfers. The outlines of sexual parts are easily seen through the tight neoprene but no one is bothered or embarrassed by it.

PS - What might be caused by changes in attitudes to 'modesty' in the US isn't my experience in the UK. Longer swimwear is better if surfing because it protects the thighs better. If swimming and NOT surfing? Competitive swimwear is very technical and more cloth can give a swimmer a slight edge against other swimmers. Casual swimmers in the sea or our local swimming pool? Whatever they want from a bare minimum to longer shorts for men or more or less revealing swimwear for women. Our local clothes stores sell whatever you want but some bikinis are marked 'Not to be worn as swimwear' - because they become transparent when wet!

PPS - Competitive cyclists pass my house many times a week. Most are wearing skin tight clothing that leaves none of the shape of balls and penis, or camel toe to the imagination. If you look closely - which I don't normally - you can see whether a woman has a shaved pudenda or not. The only reason I know that is that a woman cyclist had a puncture outside my house. I helped her repair that puncture. She wasn't shaved...

MoonlightandRoses said:

Electric Blue, I’ve never realized where you are from before. But, your comment #203 is particularly interesting to me as it has been my impression that men in your country still wore tight bathing suits.,

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Yes, Oz.

Red Speedos (budgie smugglers) made famous by this guy (ex PM):

http://www.cairnspost.com.au/news/o...e/news-story/76e09885025d87580a5e6e55fb597484

Speedos on younger men, not so much (unless they are swimmers, not casual bathers), more on older men who just keep wearing what we've always worn.

MoonlightandRoses said:

Jehoram, as to your comment #204 about “. . . lady showing a lot of leg, shoulder . . .” here is an example although it may be extreme: https://i.ytimg.com/vi/lw9ojjDFpSU/maxresdefault.jpg.

Moonlight and Roses,

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That's what I'm talking about. And these ladies are actually far more chastely dressed than the ones on the late night talk show that I've seen.

When I was surfing in Australia many decades ago the brief swimwear I wore meant that my inner thighs were sometimes rubbed sore by the edges of my surfboard.

Surfboard finishes are much better now, but swimwear with legs is better for surfing than a minimal ball cover.

An Apology...

Moonlight and Roses,

I have been looking back over some of my posts in this thread and think I need to apologise to you. I have been too argumentative when I meant to be discussing, not arguing.

I don't agree that male modesty is a factor in the change in what men wear when swimming. I think it is just an example of cycles in fashion. In the late 20th and early 21st centuries fashion has made a difference to what men wear far more than it did before. Just because I disagree with your premise is no reason for me to be rude, and I think I have been. Sorry.

Oggbashan, I don’t feel you have been too argumentative or rude, but thank you for that last statement. I agree that one can’t speak for every man when saying whether men are the most modest sex, but I feel one can talk about men in general, the average man or the typical man and that is what I meant. For example not all men are the same height, but in the US the average male is just over 5 feet 9 inches (1.763 meters). My mistake was that I wasn’t clear enough.

You wrote “Men on that beach wear everything from full wet suits to speedos. Some wear longer shorts. Some wear swimwear as minimal as any woman's lower bikini - just a pouch in front. They are rare,” which indicates to me that men in England on average or typically wear bathing suits larger than those women wear, at least on the bottom.

I feel that the major difference between us is that you “. . . don’t agree that male modesty is a factor in the change in what men wear when swimming.” But that you “. . . think it is just an example of cycles in fashion.” My belief is that fashions do not randomly change, but change for reasons. I feel that the reason that, as far as I can see, men are less willing, on average, generally or typically, to expose skin than women are is because, for some reason, men, in general, on average, typically are more modest about that than woman are. It is not a problem that you disagree with that and I never say that I am certainly correct.

Moonlight and Roses,

Thank you Electric Blue and Jehoram for your comments.

Moonlight and Roses,

Thank you Moonlight and Roses.

I'm still not convinced it is modesty. Indecency laws have an impact. A man exposing his genitals is likely to be arrested in many countries. That gives a minimal limit to what is possible in swimwear.

However when, as in my town in the 19th and early 20th century, beaches were sex-segregated men wore swimwear as minimal as 1960s speedos unless the local laws required more covering. Our local history group's researches have found that many men were naked - until a council warden appeared. Even then the usual result was a verbal warning and a request to pay three pence for the hire of an official costume.

The women's beach was closer to the town centre and more likely to be patrolled. The women usually wore more clothing but pushing the limit on what the council required was normal.

As an aside: At Margate in Kent in the early and mid 19th Century like many seaside towns bathing machines were used. A local man invented a canvas modesty hood that lowered to below water level concealing the bather.



If the modesty hood was in use many bathers went in naked because the beneficial aspects of immersion in salt water was better if the sea covered every part of the skin.

Are men more modest than women? I don't think so. Men are more likely t o expose their bare chests than women in public. I don't believe that men are more internally, subjectively modest than women. If anything, I think the opposite is true, but that women feel compelled to dress the way they do to suit fashion standards.

The difference isn't modesty, it's that in our culture (us culture in particular) we've selected women as the sex to be objectified sexually much more than men. Men aren't modest, per se, but they are reluctant to present themselves as sex objects the way women do. Go to a High school prom these days. The boys wear long sleeve shirts and pants, and the girls wear micro mini form fitting dresses. I guarantee you those girls are not more immodest than the boys. It's what culture expects.

Oggbashan, when I say that I feel men are more modest than women I do not mean naturally more modest. It is cultural. I feel that in the past women were more modest than men.

Simon, the idea that men are more likely to expose their nipples has to do with the law. I taught in college and looking out at the class the men were generally covered up to their necks while the women were much more likely to show part of their chests (their breasts). To me men being “. . . reluctant to present themselves as sex objects . . .” is modesty. Women now-a-days are freer in regard to fashion then men are. If they were as modest as men in showing skin fashion would change. Modesty is what culture expects. Our culture expects men, with the exception of nipples (and that is changing), to cover up more than women. To me that mean that men are more modest.

I am beginning to feel that I am just repeating myself. At this point I am willing to just let my previous writings speak for themselves, so I may not respond to this issue anymore. The reader can just review my previous writings.

Moonlight and Roses,

I feel that recently this thread entitled “Women” has been spending too much time about men and that is my fault. So, to hopefully change that I have linked to a video showing cartoon sketches drawn by a woman named Prudence. This is a little description by the artist "These comics basically sum up my entire life, being an awkward twenty-something in a society filled with things I'll probably never understand. I'm always happy to hear that I'm not the only awkward human being on this planet. Let's laugh at our daily struggles and be awkward together!" The video is a little long (approximately 17 minutes). I like that she does not show her character to be typically “beautiful” and would like to hear what people think of this.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-lCrImleZms

Moonlight and Roses,

Moonlight and Roses,

This has been an interesting thread with some relevant information added by multiple people.

US cultural norms and fashion do not always translate into other countries. What you feel is male cultural modesty doesn't seem to hold true in parts of Europe and elsewhere. The time that Hollywood movies influenced worldwide fashion has long gone. For example poodle skirts and pedal pushers/capri pants were copied from movies. Now? Very few blockbuster movies influence fashion except merchandise aimed at children e.g. Frozen. Every children's party a few years ago had girls dressed as Frozen princesses.

Fashion trends move faster than they did and spread quicker because of cheap clothing outlets. I remember when a pair of jeans cost more than a week's wages and genuine Levis sold for fantastic sums behind the iron curtain. Now designer jeans might still cost real money but basic jeans can be bought in the UK for about the price of a beer.

Last year's fashion for women is dated this year. It's part of the marketing of clothes which are cheap and disposable. Men's fashion moves slower but does change. My father could wear a couple of suits to work for thirty years and if they were dry-cleaned regularly no one would even notice. Suits don't last that long now and can appear dated after a decade.

Will the culture change in the US over the next decade? Probably. But which way? If we knew we could make money by anticipating the trends. But we don't know.

Hey M&R, I know you're trying to redirect the conversation here, but I came across this article just now and it kind of supports my earlier speculation that the ubiquitous availability of porn has changed men's perception of their penises. Thought I would share.

This Is What It Looks Like When a Guy Gets a ‘Dick Job’

Logui Sordida Ad Me, yes I am trying to redirect this thread toward the subject of women, but I do appreciate you linking to this article. Although as a man I did have trouble reading through it. I do think it supports your earlier speculation. As for myself I prefer to keep my stomach relatively flat and my pecks relatively muscular, which I can do without surgery. Now did you or anyone else view the video I linked to and if you did what did you think of it. Also I welcome any new posts about women.

Moonlight and Roses,

I have written before, either in this thread or another, that I feel women and men are similar in many ways, but that does not mean that women and men are exactly the same. Importantly females are of the sex that can generally give birth. The following links go to images of pregnant women, some nude and some not, but most showing their "baby bumps" by artistic photographer Kyiera Jones. I feel these images are beautiful, but in no way suggest that giving birth is the only thing women are capable of or that a woman must give birth.

https://barbrahmusambachamamumba.co...mps-into-masterpieces-has-got-people-talking/

https://scontent-sea1-1.cdninstagra...cache_key=MTUzODE0MzY2MTM0NjE3NDQ3OQ==.2&se=7

Moonlight and Roses,