WoundedKnee
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Neither does the Vatican. It's always the duty of someone else. The higher calling is to try and shame others into doing that which you do not do.
Something useful to do post-Christmas ... feed a refugee
- Thread starter KimGordon67
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Neither does the Vatican. It's always the duty of someone else. The higher calling is to try and shame others into doing that which you do not do.
richard_daily
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"Do as I say, not as I do."
WoundedKnee
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I've met Ben. We talked. I was not impressed. He finds sentences to be rare and fleeting. He is not comfortable being in the presence of "little people." He tries to wear a disguise and I submit that that disguise is not just literal, but figurative. I think he says the things that people want to hear him saying and his actions reflect that; he does what he does in order to gain stature among his peers even when his true vestment is only in himself. I believe that he is a sad, lonely and isolated human being. He has become a caricature.
oggbashan
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The French President is supposed to be asking Theresa May this week to take the Calais refugees in exchange for France's support on a Brexit deal.
The UK has already spent 130 million Euros in Northern France to help deal with the refugee crisis there. It took significant numbers of refugees when the Jungle was closed down - but only those who had already claimed refugee status.
Those that don't claim or won't claim? They want to enter the UK illegally because they AREN'T refugees.
The UK has already spent 130 million Euros in Northern France to help deal with the refugee crisis there. It took significant numbers of refugees when the Jungle was closed down - but only those who had already claimed refugee status.
Those that don't claim or won't claim? They want to enter the UK illegally because they AREN'T refugees.
Sean
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Dishrag, you are the dumbest motherfucker that has ever registered on Lit.
KimGordon67
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I understand your point, Ogg, which is well-made, unlike most of the reactionary rubbish that's been posted in here. I'm not sure that I entirely agree with you, but I understand where you're coming from. I do, however, still think that none of that is a reason to deny people a decent meal.
The notion of 'choice' is always problematic. It's hard to imagine anyone living in the circumstances they're in in Calais (or any UNHCR camp, or any unofficial asylum seeker camp, or a myriad other situations in the world) 'choose' that. It may seem from the outside that they're not doing the sensible thing, but I'd hestitate to make guesses as their own logic. I'd also be reluctant to tar all the refugees/asylum seekers/'migrants'/whatever with the same brush on the basis of the actions of a few.
Having worked with refugees of various stripes, I can see how desperation might cloud better human judgement. One of the frequent visitors to the place I worked was an ex Burmese child soldier who was at that time in his late teens/early 20s. When I first met him, I had no idea of his background, but you could immediately sense how broken he was. However, I also wouldn't be alone in a room with him - I can't even explain why.
I'm not trying to equate any of the people currently in Calais with this boy, but I learnt from that, and numerous other people I encountered during that time, that things are seldom simple. But we need to maintain some sense of human decency in spite of that. I wouldn't begrudge anyone a decent daily meal, especially in the middle of a northern winter, regardless of anything that I thought about them.
Y'all can bang on about me being a SJW, or not doing enough 'myself'. (Not you Ogg - the others.) Handily, the rugged individualism of neoliberalism means you're ideologically justified in only looking after yourself (and maybe immediate family), while those of us who see the world differently are maligned if we don't pour our entire souls and salaries into every single cause that we support, because if we don't do that we're apparently 'hypocrites'.
Whatever.
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oggbashan
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The 'refugees' in Northern France are there because they have refused help on many occasions as they travelled through Europe. They don't need our money for a free meal. They already get them through multiple agencies.
Those in Europe who need help far more than those in Northern France are those stranded on Greek Islands, in Italy, in Southern Spain (and Spanish enclaves in Africa). They are in a desperate situation unlike those around Calais.
Further afield - refugees from Iraq and Syria are starving in Lebanon and Jordan. The local authorities just cannot cope with the numbers.
Yemen is different. People are starving and dying of preventable diseases like cholera. Aid is available but the warring factions won't allow it through, or if they do they steal it and sell it at a profit only to the starving who have money.
But worst of all are the Rohinja from Myanmar. Bangladesh is a poor and overcrowded country. It cannot house or feed the hundreds of thousands who have fled to their country. Despite assurances from Myanmar that military operations against the Rohinja have stopped, refugees are still arriving daily with stories of killings and burned villages. Thousands of babies have been born to Rohinja women in the shacks. Bangladesh won't register those births because it would give the babies Bangladesh nationality - and Bangaldesh is so poor that they just cannot afford that. Myanmar won't register the births either. For generations the Rohinja have been denied citizenship rights in Myanmar. Despite living there for hundreds of years they have been considered illegal immigrants with no rights in Myanmar.
The people and businesses of Calais have suffered from the impact of the so-called refugees living rough around the town. A few years ago I and some of my neighbours would go to Calais for an evening meal in a genuine French restaurant. I would meet my French friends there. We would go shopping or visit museums in Calais itself. We don't now. Our parked vehicles aren't safe. Getting back to the ferry or Eurotunnel can mean locking the vehicle's doors on the inside and enduring abuse as we wait in line.
When I go to France now I go straight on to the autoroute and accelerate away at the maximum permitted speed bypassing Calais. My friends who live in Calais meet me at an inland restaurant miles away from the port of Calais. It is sad and so unnecessary.
Those in Europe who need help far more than those in Northern France are those stranded on Greek Islands, in Italy, in Southern Spain (and Spanish enclaves in Africa). They are in a desperate situation unlike those around Calais.
Further afield - refugees from Iraq and Syria are starving in Lebanon and Jordan. The local authorities just cannot cope with the numbers.
Yemen is different. People are starving and dying of preventable diseases like cholera. Aid is available but the warring factions won't allow it through, or if they do they steal it and sell it at a profit only to the starving who have money.
But worst of all are the Rohinja from Myanmar. Bangladesh is a poor and overcrowded country. It cannot house or feed the hundreds of thousands who have fled to their country. Despite assurances from Myanmar that military operations against the Rohinja have stopped, refugees are still arriving daily with stories of killings and burned villages. Thousands of babies have been born to Rohinja women in the shacks. Bangladesh won't register those births because it would give the babies Bangladesh nationality - and Bangaldesh is so poor that they just cannot afford that. Myanmar won't register the births either. For generations the Rohinja have been denied citizenship rights in Myanmar. Despite living there for hundreds of years they have been considered illegal immigrants with no rights in Myanmar.
The people and businesses of Calais have suffered from the impact of the so-called refugees living rough around the town. A few years ago I and some of my neighbours would go to Calais for an evening meal in a genuine French restaurant. I would meet my French friends there. We would go shopping or visit museums in Calais itself. We don't now. Our parked vehicles aren't safe. Getting back to the ferry or Eurotunnel can mean locking the vehicle's doors on the inside and enduring abuse as we wait in line.
When I go to France now I go straight on to the autoroute and accelerate away at the maximum permitted speed bypassing Calais. My friends who live in Calais meet me at an inland restaurant miles away from the port of Calais. It is sad and so unnecessary.
lovecraft68
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Or you could feed the jobless homeless citizens of the US or where ever your country is. The ones that the government-both under Obama and so far under Trump-could not care less about and liberals ignore because they hate actual Americans including themselves.
Libs "I'll help you, but only if you're not from this country and you have darker skin than me. Oh, I wish I could cut my white skin off oh.....
Libs "I'll help you, but only if you're not from this country and you have darker skin than me. Oh, I wish I could cut my white skin off oh.....
KimGordon67
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I'm sorry that you find you can only care about one thing at a time - it must make life quite limited for you.
Amoebah
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KimGordon67
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If they're all in France illegally, have no claim to refugee status, znd are all continually commiting violent and/or property crime, shy aren't they arrested and deported?
oggbashan
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It's not ALL of them but it is a significant number of them, assisted by criminal gangs that use the people living in the jungle (or its successors) as cash cows. The gangs promise access to trucks or other means of getting into England for large amounts of money - typically thousands of pounds/euros/us dollars.
Many are arrested - frequently - but the French haven't got sufficient evidence to charge individuals rampaging in dozens in the dark. They can't be deported because they have destroyed their papers and claim to come from countries that will not accept them back. If they could PROVE they came from those countries - they could register as refugees which they don't want to do. On the other hand the French authorities can't prove they are from countries that do not have current war zones. They ALL want to get to England, not stay in France.
The French could charge them with being in France without identity papers but they won't because genuine refugees often don't have papers. Not having papers to produce would mean a fine. What's the point? In theory these people don't have money. The French want them gone because they are a real nuisance but as long as the people think there is a faint chance of getting to England they will stay as close to the port as they can.
The real problem is:
If those living rough around the Channel ports succeed in getting to England they will be followed by many thousands more who are currently dispersed throughout France. The hundreds now could become tens of thousands within weeks if it is possible for them to cross the Channel. The UK already has many genuine refugees and possibly somewhere between half a million and a million illegal immigrants already. We can't cope with those numbers now. We can't open our borders to anyone who travels to Northern France.
The real danger is that among the people who have a genuine reason for wanting to come to the UK there are convicted criminals and ex-ISIS fighters who see England as a target. Several people arrested for plotting terror attacks in the UK have travelled to the UK via the Northern France camps.
We don't know who they are. The French authorities don't know who they are. The 'refugees' won't admit who they are because that could mean deportation to their country of origin.
The French don't want them. The UK doesn't want them and has paid massive amounts of money to the French to keep them out of the UK. Even if all wars in the Middle East and Africa ended overnight these 'refugees' would still want to come to the UK because they see it as a land of opportunity.
KimGordon67
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So it's not all of them ... in that case some are 'genuine' (whatever that means)?
oggbashan
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Additional information
The so-called refugees in Northern France are a minor problem compared with the numbers of refugees and economic migrants spread throughout Europe.
The EU has proved itself totally incapable of managing the situation of unlimited migration into Europe. In theory the Schengen zone meant that anyone in any European country that is within the Schengen zone could cross the border into another with no border checks whatever.
The EU insisted and kept insisting that the Schengen agreement was an integral part of being in the EU even as countries started closing their borders against the massive influx.
The UK by choice is NOT in the Schengen zone. Anyone coming to the UK from the rest of the EU (except the Republic of Ireland) has to show a passport (and UK citizens travelling to Europe have to carry their passport too).
The UN position on refugees is that they should register as refugees in the first safe country they reach. In the EU that usually means Greece, Italy and Spain. But those three countries cannot cope with the numbers arriving and now borders have been closed north of Greece the migrants are stuck there.
Germany's Angela Merkel's statement that all refugees were welcome was very damaging. It encouraged many more people to cross into Europe. Germany has a tradition of exploiting what it called Gast-Arbeiter (guest workers) using them for low-paid work and not giving them the same status as Germans. Germany had problems with an ageing population and a decreasing workforce. The migrants could solve the disparity in population and provide the workforce.
France, Italy, Greece, and Spain (and other EU countries) had and have high youth unemployment. They didn't want or need many more young people who would add to the unemployed.
The UK's employment rules are simple compared with most of the EU. The UK has high employment levels and many EU citizens come to the UK to get work they cannot get in their own countries. The UK, like France, Italy, Greece and Spain, does not need migrant workers from outside Europe. But any who do get to the UK are likely to find work and can start to earn money. The checks on workers are very lax. Instead of roaming the streets of Europe waiting for work that even the locals can't find if they get to the UK they are likely to find some sort of work. THAT is the draw that makes many migrants want to come to the UK.
The so-called refugees in Northern France are a minor problem compared with the numbers of refugees and economic migrants spread throughout Europe.
The EU has proved itself totally incapable of managing the situation of unlimited migration into Europe. In theory the Schengen zone meant that anyone in any European country that is within the Schengen zone could cross the border into another with no border checks whatever.
The EU insisted and kept insisting that the Schengen agreement was an integral part of being in the EU even as countries started closing their borders against the massive influx.
The UK by choice is NOT in the Schengen zone. Anyone coming to the UK from the rest of the EU (except the Republic of Ireland) has to show a passport (and UK citizens travelling to Europe have to carry their passport too).
The UN position on refugees is that they should register as refugees in the first safe country they reach. In the EU that usually means Greece, Italy and Spain. But those three countries cannot cope with the numbers arriving and now borders have been closed north of Greece the migrants are stuck there.
Germany's Angela Merkel's statement that all refugees were welcome was very damaging. It encouraged many more people to cross into Europe. Germany has a tradition of exploiting what it called Gast-Arbeiter (guest workers) using them for low-paid work and not giving them the same status as Germans. Germany had problems with an ageing population and a decreasing workforce. The migrants could solve the disparity in population and provide the workforce.
France, Italy, Greece, and Spain (and other EU countries) had and have high youth unemployment. They didn't want or need many more young people who would add to the unemployed.
The UK's employment rules are simple compared with most of the EU. The UK has high employment levels and many EU citizens come to the UK to get work they cannot get in their own countries. The UK, like France, Italy, Greece and Spain, does not need migrant workers from outside Europe. But any who do get to the UK are likely to find work and can start to earn money. The checks on workers are very lax. Instead of roaming the streets of Europe waiting for work that even the locals can't find if they get to the UK they are likely to find some sort of work. THAT is the draw that makes many migrants want to come to the UK.
oggbashan
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But how do you separate the lambs from the sheep and from the wolves when none of them have any proof of identity?
Those that are really 'genuine' are likely to have claimed refugee status. Some of them are waiting for a decision on their claim and are stuck until the decision. But they are likely to be in shelters provided by the French authorities, not in the camps.
There are ways out of the situation if the 'refugees' are prepared to cooperate even minimally with the French authorities.
There are no ways out for those on the Greek islands, in Lebanon, in Jordan. There even fewer chances in Yemen and for the Rohinja now in Bangladesh.
KimGordon67
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You don't separate them - you just feed them all.
Anything else is adhering to the same logic people use for dismantling welfare on the basis that some people are rorting the system.
Please stop schooling me on the global refugee crisis. I'm aware of that. Again, it's a flawed logic - basically you're saying don't help anyone until you locate the apex of need. If you want to start a thread seeking help for the Rohingya, by all means do. I'd totally support it.
oggbashan
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I'm not saying don't help them but they don't need any more help. They get too much for their needs. What they want is to get to England. Anything else is irrelevant. They don't want any more media teams descending on them.
They do get fed - all of them. There are many charities active in Northern France working with these groups. Some are French, several are British.
Edited to add: So much clothing has been donated to the 'refugees' that tons of good stuff had to be thrown away. Some people driving from the UK to bring clothing, tents and food were turned away by the 'refugees' themselves.
PPS. I'm not schooling you except about your obvious misunderstandings of the situation in Northern France. The 'refugees' there are not short of help and assistance. They don't need money except to pay the people smugglers. They don't need food. They don't need clothing. They don't need medical attention. Even their pets get monitored by vets. They even get legal advice on how to change their status. All they want is to get to England - illegally.
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KimGordon67
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I know some of the people running this endeavour. They"ve been there something like three years. I think they probably know whether their vonuntary labour is needed or not. Possibly they're one of the charities you're talking about. I just happen to like their grass roots approach.
If people don't need clothes or tents, we can't force them to take them just so we feel better. If people want to help, they should check first to see what's actually helpful.
oggbashan
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Exactly. And the only help that is really wanted is a journey to England.
oggbashan
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President Macron of France visited the Calais 'refugees' today. He emphasised the need for the 'refugees' to register as refugees.
But his main purpose was to ask for more money from the UK. The UK has already given France £100 million pounds for border controls, security at the port and Eurotunnel AND assistance to process the refugees. How much more should we pay?
But his main purpose was to ask for more money from the UK. The UK has already given France £100 million pounds for border controls, security at the port and Eurotunnel AND assistance to process the refugees. How much more should we pay?
