AwkwardMD and Omenainen Review Thread
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Vix_Giovanni
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Seems this thread may have died...
AMD’s probably been busy; she’s recently published two exceptional new stories and edited a couple of epic-sized stories. If you haven’t already, you could check out her new stories to support her
Human Resource
Work in Progress
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KeithD
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Seems this thread may have died...
That's been the historical reality for all hanging out "I'll be your writing guru" shingles on this thread.
Vix_Giovanni
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I wouldn’t doubt that’s been the case many times over. But I do know that, in this specific instance, AMD’s working as hard as she can, and things are kinda hectic, as they are for a lot of people at this time.
AwkwardMD
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KeithD is a bully and you should all just ignore him
Just lost a lot of my alone time in the pandemic, and had to prioritize. The month of May got away from me.
I read Surprise on the Appalachian Trail a month ago and, hilariously, re-read it this morning because it had been bothering me that I'd left your request unanswered.
I'll be trying to collect my thoughts today.
Seems this thread may have died...
Just lost a lot of my alone time in the pandemic, and had to prioritize. The month of May got away from me.
I read Surprise on the Appalachian Trail a month ago and, hilariously, re-read it this morning because it had been bothering me that I'd left your request unanswered.
I'll be trying to collect my thoughts today.
BrokenSpokes
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Unprompted flaming
I don't really know anyone on this thread except for AwkwardMD and Vix, but I don't know where people get off snarking at AMD about this. She's taken on an enormous amount of reading and critiquing out of the goodness of her heart.
She's published two incredibly good pieces of her own in the last month, and I know she's working on more. And she's edited over 80,000 words of my stuff in the last two months.
People have their own lives, their own priorities, their own work and projects.
If you want to bitch about someone taking a while to do free work, go start your own critique thread.
I don't really know anyone on this thread except for AwkwardMD and Vix, but I don't know where people get off snarking at AMD about this. She's taken on an enormous amount of reading and critiquing out of the goodness of her heart.
She's published two incredibly good pieces of her own in the last month, and I know she's working on more. And she's edited over 80,000 words of my stuff in the last two months.
People have their own lives, their own priorities, their own work and projects.
If you want to bitch about someone taking a while to do free work, go start your own critique thread.
Bramblethorn
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...and given very thoughtful and useful feedback on some of mine too.
Life has been busy and chaotic for a lot of us in the last few months for some reason.
BelleCanzuto
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The month of May has been a never-ending, bottomless quagmire filled mostly with shit, that somehow has also only lasted one hundred and ninety two hours.
Is it possible to live in two alternate universes at the same time? Cuz that's what I think happened/is happening to me.
AMD, if I can ever get my brain to work (and can get this non con story I've been "editing" since Christmas finished) I'm going to dive into Human Resource.
Haulover
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Thanks so much! I gather from the posts above that you've published a few stories recently. I'll make a point of reading them.
I hope you're not referring to my post. It wasn't "snarky" at all. (Wasn't meant to be, anyway.) I simply thought it had been a nice thread, and if it died for whatever reason, as threads tend to do, that was a bit sad.
KeithD
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Naw, it was pointed at me, for noting historical reality here.
AwkwardMD
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Surprise on the Appalachian Trail
Link
I’ve talked in other feedback, possibly not in this thread, about stories that read like non-fiction. There’s certainly a place for stories that are true encounters from our real lives, but for the purpose of this thread, I’m trying to help people write fiction. Nobody needs help learning how to retell a real life encounter except to improve their memory and get the grammar down.
The devil here is in the details. Stories that are true encounters are often chock full of details that don’t matter to the story, but stand out in the mind of the teller. They usually include way way way more setup than is necessary, and are short on dialog. Conversations tend to be glossed over, with lines that read like “He told us about the trip to the store, and we all laughed,” rather than telling us the story. There’s a lot of filler in areas that don’t matter, and a dearth of details that do.
In this particular case, what we have here is a love story about how much you enjoy hiking, and there’s some sex crammed in there too. If you’ll note, all the comments are by hikers who know the Appalachian Trail so well that they all abbreviate it, and that’s indicative. It’s a “You had to be there” kind of thing. All of those commenters have been there, and to them this worked.
Details are a hard thing to manage in a story because readers will retain them if they think they will matter later. The more things you ask a reader to hold on to, the more they’re looking for those details to matter later. Debbie’s Volvo, the smell of skunks, or whoever David Lesser is. None of these things come back around later, but we’re holding onto them in the backs of our minds. It takes up space in the short term memory.
Pacing also tends to be an issue. The length of time between characters meeting for the first time and intercourse is usually truncated, and the sex doesn’t feel earned. Porn gives you sex, and it’s generally the superior medium for jumping right into dicks in vages. The strength of erotica is the ability to give you more backstory, more emotion, greater tension, and then a significantly stronger emotional release when the moment finally arrives.
Surprise on the Appalachian Trail introduces our characters, gives us some hints about the kind of sex they like, and then it’s hiking hiking hiking. We meet the prospective sexual partners, and there’s some narrated flirting (ie, the narration tells us about flirty glances passing around rather than having a character experience being on the receiving end of one, and what that’s like), and then it’s hiking hiking hiking. Then there’s sex.
I didn’t feel like I understood the chemistry between the characters. If I had to lay the lion’s share of the blame when I say that the sex didn’t feel earned, it’s this. The way I read this story, these characters were basically strangers. Now, stories about sex with strangers are all well and good, but sex with strangers is a very different kind of kink than public sex, or group sex, and you pay those kinks off differently.
-Sex with strangers is a lot of internal whinging (omg, this man could be anyone but I can be who I want to be/really am without fear of judgement because I’ll never see him again). Instead, the characters had an instant bond that didn’t feel authentic. They didn’t read like strangers to each other because everyone was instant best friends.
-Public sex is about the fear of being caught. Instead, nobody was glancing excitedly into the dark shadows of the woods. If you spot two people having sex in front of a window in a tall building, they’re risking being seen but they’re also mostly safe in terms of getting caught. If you walked past two people having vigorous, uninhibited sex on a park bench in a crowded area, you’d probably think they had a few screws loose because the chances of being caught and the potential punishment are way higher than any thrill could justify. Sex is the woods is closer to the former than the latter, but someone would have their head on a swivel just in case.
-Group sex is about a group dynamic. Instead, this was a rotating cast of pairings. Me and my wife. Me and his wife while my wife is with that dude. Me and other wife while my wife is with other dude. That’s a laundry list, not a main event.
At 10k words, Surprise on the Appalachian Trail wasn’t a huge time investment, but it’s possible to tell a shocking amount of story in 10k words. I think you have the experience and the storytelling ability to aim a lot higher than this.
One trick you might try is a tool we use in Quality control called 5 Why. When we run into a big defect in a product, we can usually ask why a series of times to get down to the root cause. Once you get down to the root cause of something, you can look back at a clear path between cause and effect and shape a story with foreshadowing, setup, tension, payoff, and release.
Product has a hole in it. Why? The foam sometimes has air bubbles in it prior to injection into the mold. Why? The filler that we add to the mix creates air bubbles. We have a step in our process that should eliminate air bubbles by heating and moving the fluid, but it didn't this time because the heater was under temperature. Why? The gauge was incorrect. The operator thought he was in the right temperature range, but the gauge was off by 20º. Why? PM was not performed on shaker unit on schedule because of backup of repairs. Why? Maintenance is understaffed.
You can read this in both directions, see exactly how Alpha leads to Omega, and vice versa.
I want to tell a story about a time we had sex on a mountain. Why? See how far you can get. I'm not suggesting you respond with the answer, but try to apply this line of thought to the next one and see what it gets you.
Link
I’ve talked in other feedback, possibly not in this thread, about stories that read like non-fiction. There’s certainly a place for stories that are true encounters from our real lives, but for the purpose of this thread, I’m trying to help people write fiction. Nobody needs help learning how to retell a real life encounter except to improve their memory and get the grammar down.
The devil here is in the details. Stories that are true encounters are often chock full of details that don’t matter to the story, but stand out in the mind of the teller. They usually include way way way more setup than is necessary, and are short on dialog. Conversations tend to be glossed over, with lines that read like “He told us about the trip to the store, and we all laughed,” rather than telling us the story. There’s a lot of filler in areas that don’t matter, and a dearth of details that do.
In this particular case, what we have here is a love story about how much you enjoy hiking, and there’s some sex crammed in there too. If you’ll note, all the comments are by hikers who know the Appalachian Trail so well that they all abbreviate it, and that’s indicative. It’s a “You had to be there” kind of thing. All of those commenters have been there, and to them this worked.
Details are a hard thing to manage in a story because readers will retain them if they think they will matter later. The more things you ask a reader to hold on to, the more they’re looking for those details to matter later. Debbie’s Volvo, the smell of skunks, or whoever David Lesser is. None of these things come back around later, but we’re holding onto them in the backs of our minds. It takes up space in the short term memory.
Pacing also tends to be an issue. The length of time between characters meeting for the first time and intercourse is usually truncated, and the sex doesn’t feel earned. Porn gives you sex, and it’s generally the superior medium for jumping right into dicks in vages. The strength of erotica is the ability to give you more backstory, more emotion, greater tension, and then a significantly stronger emotional release when the moment finally arrives.
Surprise on the Appalachian Trail introduces our characters, gives us some hints about the kind of sex they like, and then it’s hiking hiking hiking. We meet the prospective sexual partners, and there’s some narrated flirting (ie, the narration tells us about flirty glances passing around rather than having a character experience being on the receiving end of one, and what that’s like), and then it’s hiking hiking hiking. Then there’s sex.
I didn’t feel like I understood the chemistry between the characters. If I had to lay the lion’s share of the blame when I say that the sex didn’t feel earned, it’s this. The way I read this story, these characters were basically strangers. Now, stories about sex with strangers are all well and good, but sex with strangers is a very different kind of kink than public sex, or group sex, and you pay those kinks off differently.
-Sex with strangers is a lot of internal whinging (omg, this man could be anyone but I can be who I want to be/really am without fear of judgement because I’ll never see him again). Instead, the characters had an instant bond that didn’t feel authentic. They didn’t read like strangers to each other because everyone was instant best friends.
-Public sex is about the fear of being caught. Instead, nobody was glancing excitedly into the dark shadows of the woods. If you spot two people having sex in front of a window in a tall building, they’re risking being seen but they’re also mostly safe in terms of getting caught. If you walked past two people having vigorous, uninhibited sex on a park bench in a crowded area, you’d probably think they had a few screws loose because the chances of being caught and the potential punishment are way higher than any thrill could justify. Sex is the woods is closer to the former than the latter, but someone would have their head on a swivel just in case.
-Group sex is about a group dynamic. Instead, this was a rotating cast of pairings. Me and my wife. Me and his wife while my wife is with that dude. Me and other wife while my wife is with other dude. That’s a laundry list, not a main event.
At 10k words, Surprise on the Appalachian Trail wasn’t a huge time investment, but it’s possible to tell a shocking amount of story in 10k words. I think you have the experience and the storytelling ability to aim a lot higher than this.
One trick you might try is a tool we use in Quality control called 5 Why. When we run into a big defect in a product, we can usually ask why a series of times to get down to the root cause. Once you get down to the root cause of something, you can look back at a clear path between cause and effect and shape a story with foreshadowing, setup, tension, payoff, and release.
Product has a hole in it. Why? The foam sometimes has air bubbles in it prior to injection into the mold. Why? The filler that we add to the mix creates air bubbles. We have a step in our process that should eliminate air bubbles by heating and moving the fluid, but it didn't this time because the heater was under temperature. Why? The gauge was incorrect. The operator thought he was in the right temperature range, but the gauge was off by 20º. Why? PM was not performed on shaker unit on schedule because of backup of repairs. Why? Maintenance is understaffed.
You can read this in both directions, see exactly how Alpha leads to Omega, and vice versa.
I want to tell a story about a time we had sex on a mountain. Why? See how far you can get. I'm not suggesting you respond with the answer, but try to apply this line of thought to the next one and see what it gets you.
Last edited:
Haulover
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Many, many thanks for your very well reasoned critique.
I've always added a lot of (too much?) detail to my stories, to build credibility. I guess I've read too much Frederick Forsyth Perhaps I should study those novels again to see how he weaves the details into the actual story line. I take your point about too many details interrupting the flow.
Also, the interactions and developing relationships between the characters could certainly have been enriched and would have added layers to the finale.
I'll re-read your critique later, and I suspect I have some heavy editing to do on the story I'm working on right now.
Thanks again!
I've always added a lot of (too much?) detail to my stories, to build credibility. I guess I've read too much Frederick Forsyth
Perhaps I should study those novels again to see how he weaves the details into the actual story line. I take your point about too many details interrupting the flow.Also, the interactions and developing relationships between the characters could certainly have been enriched and would have added layers to the finale.
I'll re-read your critique later, and I suspect I have some heavy editing to do on the story I'm working on right now.
Thanks again!
Vix_Giovanni
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Many, many thanks for your very well reasoned critique.
I've always added a lot of (too much?) detail to my stories, to build credibility. I guess I've read too much Frederick Forsyth
Also, the interactions and developing relationships between the characters could certainly have been enriched and would have added layers to the finale.
I'll re-read your critique later, and I suspect I have some heavy editing to do on the story I'm working on right now.
Thanks again!
Bookwormmom writes in a similar vein of stories focused on hiking and camping, and some of her stories strike a near-perfect balance between hiker-insider details, accessibility, romantic will-they/won’t-they tension and eroticism. It may prove very helpful to give her stories a spin.
There’s a cliche about things being “worth the wait”
A lot of helpful takeaways here, AMD!
SimonDoom
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Bookwormmom writes in a similar vein of stories focused on hiking and camping, and some of her stories strike a near-perfect balance between hiker-insider details, accessibility, romantic will-they/won’t-they tension and eroticism. It may prove very helpful to give her stories a spin.
There’s a cliche about things being “worth the wait”
Which of her stories concerned hiking and camping? I couldn't tell from the titles and descriptions. I like hiking/camping/sex stories and am working on one now.
SpindleTop
Experienced
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Helpful
AwkwardMD, I really want to thank you for posting your feedback on SOTAT.
Many of the items you addressed had been confusing me, and you provided much needed clarity. The feedback related to detail and how much is too much was particularly helpful. I often find myself in detail paralysis because I never feel like I've provided enough to capture everything going on in a scene.
Your point about being able to pack more meaningful detail into fewer words through the dialogue and conversations really helped me identify the thing that all my favorite authors have in commen; they all seem to have mastered the art of folding more mundane details into the rich conversational dialogue that, in my opinion, is the heart and soul of any story. The very best seemed able to pack far more detail of every kind into far fewer pages than I ever could.....until now.
I think I've learned their trick thanks to you.
Now I just hope I can apply what I've learned.
Thanks again. Laz
AwkwardMD, I really want to thank you for posting your feedback on SOTAT.
Many of the items you addressed had been confusing me, and you provided much needed clarity. The feedback related to detail and how much is too much was particularly helpful. I often find myself in detail paralysis because I never feel like I've provided enough to capture everything going on in a scene.
Your point about being able to pack more meaningful detail into fewer words through the dialogue and conversations really helped me identify the thing that all my favorite authors have in commen; they all seem to have mastered the art of folding more mundane details into the rich conversational dialogue that, in my opinion, is the heart and soul of any story. The very best seemed able to pack far more detail of every kind into far fewer pages than I ever could.....until now.
I think I've learned their trick thanks to you.
Now I just hope I can apply what I've learned.
Thanks again. Laz
AwkwardMD
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This is a function of confidence. I don’t feel like I made myself clear enough, so let me add more. Still not enough. Still not enough. Never enough.
The best thing I found to combat this, because you can't just learn confidence, is to experiment with too few details. Actively try to paint a picture with as little as possible. Your readers will tell you when something wasn’t clear, and then you make a small adjustment. Come at it from the other side.
Aaron Sorkin once said that the only time story ever comes alive is through characters, and it's true.
Interesting
Hey AMD,
That sounds like an interesting exercise, though the small group that I share my stories with will probably think I've lost my mind.
I consider myself a fairly honest critic of my own work, so maybe I'll try it on myself first and see how satisfied I am with the results.
I'm always trying to give my stories a certain feel, like poetry in a way, though I often ramble on, describing the atmosphere and the environment in great detail on top of the rich dialogue and conversations that I love so much. Doing a sudden 180 in writing style is probably going to give my brain whiplash.
Do they make neck braces for brains??
Anyway, thanks for the suggestion. Now I'm off to give it a try.
Hey AMD,
That sounds like an interesting exercise, though the small group that I share my stories with will probably think I've lost my mind.
I consider myself a fairly honest critic of my own work, so maybe I'll try it on myself first and see how satisfied I am with the results.
I'm always trying to give my stories a certain feel, like poetry in a way, though I often ramble on, describing the atmosphere and the environment in great detail on top of the rich dialogue and conversations that I love so much. Doing a sudden 180 in writing style is probably going to give my brain whiplash.
Do they make neck braces for brains??
Anyway, thanks for the suggestion. Now I'm off to give it a try.
Vix_Giovanni
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TYSM ST
Yes, S'mores and Fresh Start are a couple of Bookwormmom's camping/hiking stories I was mentioning.
Many writers that trend towards verbosity have tried their hands at The 750 Word Project, the shortest submission the site allows. It's an excellent exercise in satisdiction.
Emirus
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Hi MD,
I can’t remember the exact details but recently, I think it was EB68, advised someone if they had the courage to ask you for a review. My last story, published three months ago, was Consequences and I would appreciate your comments when you have time.
I can’t remember the exact details but recently, I think it was EB68, advised someone if they had the courage to ask you for a review. My last story, published three months ago, was Consequences and I would appreciate your comments when you have time.
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Sorry! I'm late to this thread and I know this comment is a few months old but I wanted to thank you. I have been content with not describing ethnicity and thus added to the lack of diversity. As a cisgendered white woman, I would not like to write a story about two black characters, but by heck I'd love to read one. You have given me a story idea though about how culture/background/experience can affect relationships and how privilege can be ignored. Thank-you for this thread though and for your services. You rock!
S
SamathaCattish
Guest
Writers should write the stories they wish to write, while you should advertise your review thread to a more diverse group. I hope that if you come across a black writer, gay writer, intersex writer, etc., that you tell them they had better have a diverse cast as well.
By telling people who they should write about, you've limited their ability to be creative.
KeithD
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I think the characters in my stories are ethnically diverse, but I don't strive to make them so as some sort of something writers should give priority to. That's just PC nonsense. The characters should serve the context of the story and writers have no requirement or "should" to write in any world or context they don't want to. If a writer's personal motivation for writing stories is to provide social consciousness for the world, good and fine for them, but that's not a necessary element of writing for anyone else.
If I were critiquing a story and the ethnicity of a character didn't match the context of the story, that would be something for me to mention. But a comment of "you don't have a Chinese character in this story about the founding of Jamestown--or any of the stories I've read of yours about the American Revolution" when those are the eras a writer writes about, by choice, would be more than a bit silly. A writer doesn't have an obligation to write someone of Chinese extraction into their portfolio of stories just because Chinese people exist and diversity is good.
If I were critiquing a story and the ethnicity of a character didn't match the context of the story, that would be something for me to mention. But a comment of "you don't have a Chinese character in this story about the founding of Jamestown--or any of the stories I've read of yours about the American Revolution" when those are the eras a writer writes about, by choice, would be more than a bit silly. A writer doesn't have an obligation to write someone of Chinese extraction into their portfolio of stories just because Chinese people exist and diversity is good.
Bramblethorn
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Obvious alt is obvious. At the risk of stifling your creativity, perhaps you should get some new material?
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