Racial Terminology in a Story

I have a story written a few years ago, with an African-American character; a tall gorgeous fashion model, whose roots are in southern Mississippi. She was raised there in the 1940’s and experienced first hand, all of the worst kinds of racism.

Years later, out on the town with a date, a couple of red-necks address her using the biggie – the ‘N’-word. In the story, the red-necks definitely get their ‘comeuppance’.

The context of the use of the term in the story, is to vilify it. It’s not used lightly or as banter in conversation. What do you think—is the use of this word ever okay in a Literotica story?

Thanks
IL

as a demonstration of the ignorance of the villains, i think it is acceptable. you are writing a character who uses those terms. some people are going to go rabid over ANY use of the word so i'm sure you'll get other responses saying differently from me. if it worries you and you haven't already published, use the time honored convention N*****.

ilamont said:

I have a story written a few years ago, with an African-American character; a tall gorgeous fashion model, whose roots are in southern Mississippi. She was raised there in the 1940’s and experienced first hand, all of the worst kinds of racism.

Years later, out on the town with a date, a couple of red-necks address her using the biggie – the ‘N’-word. In the story, the red-necks definitely get their ‘comeuppance’.

The context of the use of the term in the story, is to vilify it. It’s not used lightly or as banter in conversation. What do you think—is the use of this word ever okay to use in a Literotica story?

Thanks
IL

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I imagine opinions are all over the map on this one. I'll offer my two cents.

Yes, it should be OK. In my opinion, nothing in fiction should be taboo -- not subject matter, not language. It's foolish to allow all manner of violence and illegal, horrible activity and obscene language in books, TV shows, and movies and yet draw a hard line that this word can never be uttered or used in fiction.

People use this word all the time in real life. To depict that life, which is a worthy subject, the author should be able to use the word without being vilified.

Have you seen Pulp Fiction? I lost count of how many times the word was used in that movie. How can it be acceptable there but not here?

The context you describe is one where it would be realistic for the word to be used. I don't see how that would be objectionable. But some may disagree.

You should do a bit of research on the term 'Deconstruction' as it pertains to storytelling.

AwkwardMD said:

You should do a bit of research on the term 'Deconstruction' as it pertains to storytelling.

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What does this mean?

What information pertinent to this topic would this research yield?

A good library has enough books to offend everybody...

ilamont said:

I have a story written a few years ago, with an African-American character; a tall gorgeous fashion model, whose roots are in southern Mississippi. She was raised there in the 1940’s and experienced first hand, all of the worst kinds of racism.

Years later, out on the town with a date, a couple of red-necks address her using the biggie – the ‘N’-word. In the story, the red-necks definitely get their ‘comeuppance’.

The context of the use of the term in the story, is to vilify it. It’s not used lightly or as banter in conversation. What do you think—is the use of this word ever okay in a Literotica story?

Thanks
IL

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Not being an American, this kinda puzzles me; if it's 'not nice' to use the 'N' word and one should NOT use it these days, why should the term "Red Neck" be still acceptable ?

ilamont said:

I have a story written a few years ago, with an African-American character; a tall gorgeous fashion model, whose roots are in southern Mississippi. She was raised there in the 1940’s and experienced first hand, all of the worst kinds of racism.

Years later, out on the town with a date, a couple of red-necks address her using the biggie – the ‘N’-word. In the story, the red-necks definitely get their ‘comeuppance’.

The context of the use of the term in the story, is to vilify it. It’s not used lightly or as banter in conversation. What do you think—is the use of this word ever okay in a Literotica story?

Thanks
IL

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One thing you can do to soften any adverse reactions is to include a short "warning to readers" at the begging of the story. In that, you can both warn folks who might be hypersensitive to something like that...and provide an explanation as to why you feel it's important since it was a very prominent term in the period the story is set, and important in conveying the reality of the times, etc.

Handley_Page said:

Not being an American, this kinda puzzles me; if it's 'not nice' to use the 'N' word and one should NOT use it these days, why should the term "Red Neck" be still acceptable ?

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The 'red necks' I know, kinda like being called 'red necks'.

But there are of course, derogatory terms for caucasians and most other ethnic backgrounds, and I'd be just as careful with their use, or avoid them altogether.

yukonnights said:

One thing you can do to soften any adverse reactions is to include a short "warning to readers" at the begging of the story. In that, you can both warn folks who might be hypersensitive to something like that...and provide an explanation as to why you feel it's important since it was a very prominent term in the period the story is set, and important in conveying the reality of the times, etc.

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This is a great idea, and I'll do it if I decide to submit the story. Thanks, IL

JaxRhapsody said:

A good library has enough books to offend everybody...

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Very true... One novel that appears on most lists of great American novels is 'The Adventures of Huckleberry Finn".

ilamont said:

This is a great idea, and I'll do it if I decide to submit the story. Thanks, IL

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Think about it first.

There's some recent evidence that "trigger warnings" -- which is what this is, in essence -- cause more distress than they prevent. A study was published recently in the Journal of Behavior Therapy and Experimental Psychiatry that supported this view.

I may be out of touch with the most contemporary sensibilities, although I'm not that old, but it seems odd to me that authors should feel obligated to let readers know everything ahead of time that might bother the readers when they read the story. I think there's something to be said for surprise. A good reader is ready for surprises, even unpleasant ones. I wonder if we baby readers when we go too far to tip them off about what might offend them.

I got slammed for using the n-word in one of my stories... of course those idiots thought was also a true story. *shakes head sadly*

Also, the word racist is incorrectly used by today's idiots that use it. What they are really talking about is bigotry not racism.

It's a work of fiction, use whatever words you wish just like all the authors have in the past and all the future authors will.

I have never seen a word draw blood when used. I have seen fists draw blood and knives and bullets shot our of guns. But unless that sign hanging over your head falls, words don't hurt. If they hurt you, then you need therapy.

RubenR said:

It's a very commonly used word; ever seen how often "nigger bitches" is being used on some of the 'black' forums, and their Facebook pages? It probably is a different story when a 'white' person uses it.

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I have black friends who all agree that if I called any of them a “black bastard” I would be arrested but if they called me a “white bastard” nothing would happen. The word “nigger” etc is frequently used black-to-black and in (c)rap so-called music.

There was a famous WW2 raid immortalised in the film The Dam Busters. The main character had a black Labrador retriever called Nigger. Perfectly acceptable in the 1940’s but, quite rightly, not now. But is it really necessary to bleep out the word every time it occurs in the film? It’s not that many times.

I can’t see anything wrong in using the word, in context, to illustrate how moronic a character is because otherwise what’s the point of writing if you can’t be realistic? Having said which is Literotica realistic?

Zeb_Carter said:

I got slammed for using the n-word in one of my stories... of course those idiots thought was also a true story. *shakes head sadly*

Also, the word racist is incorrectly used by today's idiots that use it. What they are really talking about is bigotry not racism.

It's a work of fiction, use whatever words you wish just like all the authors have in the past and all the future authors will.

I have never seen a word draw blood when used. I have seen fists draw blood and knives and bullets shot our of guns. But unless that sign hanging over your head falls, words don't hurt. If they hurt you, then you need therapy.

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No, dear, bigotry has nuthin to do with race. its about religious persecution.

In our time racism is entirely about whether you find niggers sexually appealing. I do not so I'm racist.

SimonDoom said:

Yes, it should be OK. In my opinion, nothing in fiction should be taboo -- not subject matter, not language. It's foolish to allow all manner of violence and illegal, horrible activity and obscene language in books, TV shows, and movies and yet draw a hard line that this word can never be uttered or used in fiction.

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I don't think that any word should be outright banned, this one included. But some words have serious baggage attached to them and it's good that people think carefully about how & whether to use them.

People use this word all the time in real life. To depict that life, which is a worthy subject, the author should be able to use the word without being vilified.

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This morning I got up, went to the toilet, and took a big shit. It was a bit smelly, probably because I was eating chicken last night. Dark brown colour, medium consistency. I wiped it with toilet paper until I was just seeing small streaks of brown on the paper, and then -

...okay, did that seem a bit weird, a bit gross? Did most of y'all start thinking "ew, I don't need to hear about that?" Sorry for grossing people out, but there's a point I needed to make there.

Most people shit on a daily basis. It's one of the very few things that is genuinely a universal human experience, and it's been one of the major drivers of human history. But I've never heard an author say "I need more shitting scenes in this book to keep it realistic".

Sometimes authors do write about shit! It plays an important role in such diverse works as "(Rita Hayworth and) The Shawshank Redemption", "Portnoy's Complaint", and "Everybody Poops", and in those books it serves a particular purpose in the story.

Maybe think of the n-word that way: when you use it in a story, you are presenting your reader with a great big steaming turd. If it's appropriate for the story to feature that turd, and you're willing to accept the effect that this will have on readers, go ahead.

Have you seen Pulp Fiction? I lost count of how many times the word was used in that movie. How can it be acceptable there but not here?

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Plenty of Black people have criticised Tarantino's fondness for the N-word. (28 times in Pulp Fiction, by Spike Lee's count, and many more in subsequent movies.) Some examples:

http://gawker.com/the-complete-history-of-quentin-tarantino-saying-nigge-1748731193
https://www.houstonchronicle.com/lo...no-and-the-n-word-Why-I-hated-The-6735878.php
https://medium.com/@cheapwine/quentin-tarantino-s-n-s-and-b-s-7a86c33cd3a2

Quoting from the last of those:

And no, you [Quentin Tarantino] don’t write “nigger” into your films that much because you love historical accuracy. You don’t give a damn about accuracy. You do it because you like shock value, and “nigger” is the same to you as an exploding head or a sliced off arm.

It’s not that White people can’t write characters that say the N-word, and it’s not that White characters can’t do it where it makes sense for the storytelling and the progress of the film. In Gone Baby Gone (2007), written and directed by Ben Affleck, a White woman, in addition to saying “faggot” and “retard” multiple times, said “nigga please” like it was nothing. I remember being shocked but not upset, and, in the end, really impressed that the movie was able to pull it off... It works because it is accurate, and the whole movie is accurate, and at no point is the film condoning what the character says or does, just telling us. Nothing about the film is over the top- it’s not flashy, it’s not using language or violence as a prop, nor is it using people as such. It is just telling a story, a real story, realer than any of Tarantino’s insane flicks have ever been. And, despite what he tries to tell us when it’s convenient, he’s never meant to make real movies. He’s always simply set out to entertain us. “Nigger”, however, is not entertaining. Definitely not 65 times.

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Tarantino made a film where a bunch of American commandos kill Hitler, so presumably he does understand that writers are allowed to throw out the bits of "reality" they don't like and substitute something better. That being the case, the bits of reality he chooses to keep are there because he wants them to be there.

(tw lynching for following content)

Handley_Page said:

Not being an American, this kinda puzzles me; if it's 'not nice' to use the 'N' word and one should NOT use it these days, why should the term "Red Neck" be still acceptable ?

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This is why:

Court officers approached Washington to escort him away, but were pushed aside by a surge of spectators, who seized Washington and dragged him outside. Washington initially fought back, biting one man, but was soon beaten. A chain was placed around his neck and he was dragged toward city hall by a growing mob; on the way downtown, he was stripped, stabbed, and repeatedly beaten with blunt objects.

By the time he was taken to city hall, a group had prepared wood for a bonfire next to a tree in front of the building. Washington, semiconscious and covered in blood, was doused with oil, hung from the tree by a chain, and lowered to the ground. Members of the crowd cut off his fingers, toes, and genitals. The fire was lit and Washington was repeatedly raised and lowered into the flames until he burned to death. German scholar Manfred Berg posits that the executioners attempted to keep him alive to increase his suffering. Washington attempted to climb the chain, but was unable to, owing to his lack of fingers.

The fire was extinguished after two hours, allowing bystanders to collect souvenirs from the site of the lynching, including Washington's bones and links of the chain. One attendee kept part of Washington's genitalia; a group of children snapped the teeth out of Washington's head to sell as souvenirs. By the time the fire was extinguished, parts of Washington's arms and legs had been burned off and his torso and head were charred. His body was removed from the tree and dragged behind a horse throughout the town. Washington's remains were transported to Robinson, where they were publicly displayed until a constable obtained the body late in the day and buried it.

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- Wikipedia, Lynching of Jesse Washington.

If you click that link, you'll see some of the postcards that people made of the event. Here's a collection of historical lynching postcards. For instance:

"The lynching of Thomas Shipp and Abram Smith, a large gathering of lynchers. August 7, 1930, Marion, Indiana.

Gelatin silver print. Copy photo. Frame, 11 x 9", photo, 3 7/8 x 2 3/4" inscribed in pencil on the inner, gray matte: "Bo pointn to his niga." On the yellowed outer matte: "klan 4th Joplin, Mo. 33." Flattened between the glass and double mattes are locks of the victim's hair."

The N-word is part of a history of slavery, rape, murder, and terror. "Redneck" may be insulting (depends somewhat on context) but it doesn't have that same baggage.

Bramblethorn said:

I don't think that any word should be outright banned, this one included. But some words have serious baggage attached to them and it's good that people think carefully about how & whether to use them.



This morning I got up, went to the toilet, and took a big shit. It was a bit smelly, probably because I was eating chicken last night. Dark brown colour, medium consistency. I wiped it with toilet paper until I was just seeing small streaks of brown on the paper, and then -

...okay, did that seem a bit weird, a bit gross? Did most of y'all start thinking "ew, I don't need to hear about that?" Sorry for grossing people out, but there's a point I needed to make there.

Most people shit on a daily basis. It's one of the very few things that is genuinely a universal human experience, and it's been one of the major drivers of human history. But I've never heard an author say "I need more shitting scenes in this book to keep it realistic".

Sometimes authors do write about shit! It plays an important role in such diverse works as "(Rita Hayworth and) The Shawshank Redemption", "Portnoy's Complaint", and "Everybody Poops", and in those books it serves a particular purpose in the story.

Maybe think of the n-word that way: when you use it in a story, you are presenting your reader with a great big steaming turd. If it's appropriate for the story to feature that turd, and you're willing to accept the effect that this will have on readers, go ahead.



Plenty of Black people have criticised Tarantino's fondness for the N-word. (28 times in Pulp Fiction, by Spike Lee's count, and many more in subsequent movies.) Some examples:

http://gawker.com/the-complete-history-of-quentin-tarantino-saying-nigge-1748731193
https://www.houstonchronicle.com/lo...no-and-the-n-word-Why-I-hated-The-6735878.php
https://medium.com/@cheapwine/quentin-tarantino-s-n-s-and-b-s-7a86c33cd3a2

Quoting from the last of those:



Tarantino made a film where a bunch of American commandos kill Hitler, so presumably he does understand that writers are allowed to throw out the bits of "reality" they don't like and substitute something better. That being the case, the bits of reality he chooses to keep are there because he wants them to be there.

(tw lynching for following content)



This is why:



- Wikipedia, Lynching of Jesse Washington.

If you click that link, you'll see some of the postcards that people made of the event. Here's a collection of historical lynching postcards. For instance:

"The lynching of Thomas Shipp and Abram Smith, a large gathering of lynchers. August 7, 1930, Marion, Indiana.

Gelatin silver print. Copy photo. Frame, 11 x 9", photo, 3 7/8 x 2 3/4" inscribed in pencil on the inner, gray matte: "Bo pointn to his niga." On the yellowed outer matte: "klan 4th Joplin, Mo. 33." Flattened between the glass and double mattes are locks of the victim's hair."

The N-word is part of a history of slavery, rape, murder, and terror. "Redneck" may be insulting (depends somewhat on context) but it doesn't have that same baggage.

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Count me as impressed. That was a bravura performance, as Literotica thread responses go. Many good points. Lots of supporting material. Lots to think about.

It's nice to know I can go to a place where people write porn stories and learn something.

SimonDoom said:

Think about it first.

There's some recent evidence that "trigger warnings" -- which is what this is, in essence -- cause more distress than they prevent. A study was published recently in the Journal of Behavior Therapy and Experimental Psychiatry that supported this view.

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Here is that study. Quoting directly from the abstract, in the authors' own words: "The sample included only non-traumatized participants; the observed effects may differ for a traumatized population." Given that the whole point of trigger warnings is to protect people who do have past traumas, this is a huge omission.

Quoting again: "Further research is needed on the generalizability of our findings, especially to collegiate populations and to those with trauma histories."

This article has further discussion on the limitations of that study. A couple of the points raised there and elsewhere:

- The effects reported are small, and the authors failed to apply Bonferroni correction for multiple comparisons. Had they done so, these findings would not have met thresholds for statistical significance, even at p = 0.05.
- The findings of the study were misreported by outlets pushing certain agendas (e.g. Breitbart reported it as "a study of college students", which it wasn't - participants were recruited online, with an average age of 37).

Basically, while it's interesting work, there's not enough there to build on without a lot more investigation.

I fully agree with Bramblethorn's poop analogy.

'Nigger' is not a word I use and, frankly, I cannot fathom why some people are not banned for the way it is used in, say, the GB. It's offensive. Yet one could not write a book about the deep south pre-1900 without using it, if only to cite and refer to the language of the time. One would be hard-pressed to write anything about modern culture without it bobbing up here and there in passing conversation.

If one wants to put a trigger warning at the front of any story of theirs which uses words which might offend, fine, go for it. I have however often thought that, were I ever condemned to do more adult education, my first lecture would contain a blanket trigger warning for the remainder of the course: coarse language, racial epithets, unpopular theories, (victim-sympathetic and factually-analytic) references to sexual assault - the works, ie. Anything which might possibly offend might possibly be uttered. Those not capable of dealing with it would be advised to find another teacher. I am sure I would be pilloried for it (and probably for mentioning it here) but so it goes. Bowdlerization just sucks. I don't swear in front of children; that doesn't mean that someone classing themself as an adult has some magic shield.

Writing a story where the villain belongs to, say, the Klan, is going to involve The Word - deal with it. I wouldn't use it sympathetically, but rather in character-setting conversation. Similarly, if I was writing about the experiences of a white man participating in the 60s civil rights marches, I wouldn't stoop to write the angriest of accusations thrown at him as, "N*****-lover!" How perfectly puerile.

I am not going to put trouser legs on my dining room table because seeing bare table legs might offend some prissy Victorian maiden aunt. Nor will I shrink, when and if necessary, to use words which some people might find upsetting. Heck, if it offends somebody that much to see such a word in one of my stories on Literotica, I'll cheerfully refund their money.

SimonDoom said:

Count me as impressed. That was a bravura performance, as Literotica thread responses go. Many good points. Lots of supporting material. Lots to think about.

It's nice to know I can go to a place where people write porn stories and learn something.

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Yes, cudos to Bramblethorn, bringing education to the masses one post at a time.

TarnishedPenny said:

I fully agree with Bramblethorn's poop analogy.

'Nigger' is not a word I use and, frankly, I cannot fathom why some people are not banned for the way it is used in, say, the GB. It's offensive. Yet one could not write a book about the deep south pre-1900 without using it, if only to cite and refer to the language of the time. One would be hard-pressed to write anything about modern culture without it bobbing up here and there in passing conversation.

If one wants to put a trigger warning at the front of any story of theirs which uses words which might offend, fine, go for it. I have however often thought that, were I ever condemned to do more adult education, my first lecture would contain a blanket trigger warning for the remainder of the course: coarse language, racial epithets, unpopular theories, (victim-sympathetic and factually-analytic) references to sexual assault - the works, ie. Anything which might possibly offend might possibly be uttered. Those not capable of dealing with it would be advised to find another teacher. I am sure I would be pilloried for it (and probably for mentioning it here) but so it goes. Bowdlerization just sucks. I don't swear in front of children; that doesn't mean that someone classing themself as an adult has some magic shield.

Writing a story where the villain belongs to, say, the Klan, is going to involve The Word - deal with it. I wouldn't use it sympathetically, but rather in character-setting conversation. Similarly, if I was writing about the experiences of a white man participating in the 60s civil rights marches, I wouldn't stoop to write the angriest of accusations thrown at him as, "N*****-lover!" How perfectly puerile.

I am not going to put trouser legs on my dining room table because seeing bare table legs might offend some prissy Victorian maiden aunt. Nor will I shrink, when and if necessary, to use words which some people might find upsetting. Heck, if it offends somebody that much to see such a word in one of my stories on Literotica, I'll cheerfully refund their money.

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I don't see why it matters what somebody puts in a story if it fits. Nobody is reading Norman Rockwells Huck Finn just like nobody is truely enjoying a TV edit of any Sam Jackson movie. Who wants to watch Pulp Fiction on TBS? And I say fuck trigger warnings.

RubenR said:

Conversations about poop, on the other hand, might be limited to stories featuring doctors, nurses, or children at the age between three and seven.

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Or readers of James Joyce:

Quietly he read, restraining himself, the first column and, yielding but resisting, began the second. Midway, his last resistance yielding, he allowed his bowels to ease themselves quietly as he read, reading still patiently that slight constipation of yesterday quite gone. Hope it’s not too big bring on piles again. No, just right. So. Ah! Costive. One tabloid of cascara sagrada. Life might be so. It did not move or touch him but it was something quick and neat. Print anything now. Silly season. He read on, seated calm above his own rising smell. Neat certainly. Matcham often thinks of the masterstroke by which he won the laughing witch who now. Begins and ends morally. Hand in hand. Smart. He glanced back through what he had read and, while feeling his water flow quietly, he envied kindly Mr. Beaufoy who had written it and received payment of three pounds, thirteen and six.

Might manage a sketch. By Mr and Mrs L.M. Bloom. Invent a story for some proverb. Which?…….

He tore away half the prize story sharply and wiped himself with it. Then he girded up his trousers, braced and buttoned himself. He pulled back the jerky shaky door of the jakes and came forth from the gloom into the air.

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That paragraph from Ulysses was considered completely obscene at the time, if it matters.

I've never used the N word, although I could see it being used to establish a character. I just don't think I've used that kind of character in one of my stories.

Bramblethorn said:

Most people shit on a daily basis. It's one of the very few things that is genuinely a universal human experience, and it's been one of the major drivers of human history. But I've never heard an author say "I need more shitting scenes in this book to keep it realistic".

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I have wondered many times, especially when a number of people are forced to stay in limited space for significant lengths of time, "wait, how did they deal with toilet there?" Disregard of bodily functions can take a heavy toll on disbelief suppression, especially when it should have been a pressing problem, not trivial to solve. Still it is often understood as simple convention not to be mentioned, although I do not fully understand why that would be preferable, actually.

Likewise, I do not understand any attempt to ban any word as such, for any reason. Well, I do not speak English at all, and in my native language, I can render any noun into derogatory term just by a function of grammar, so...

I think its acceptable for characters to use derogatory terms for other characters if you are writing to show their negative points, if you are writing about racism or prejudice or to set the scene.

For example, my story 'April Leads Julie Astray' is set in North Carolina in 1963, and Julie's father - a church minister - talks about 'Negros' and 'Chinamen' as well as describing homosexuals as 'evil men who drive around all day luring children to their cars with candy'. There is no malice in his statements, Negro and Chinaman were commonly used terms way back then, and homosexuality was hardly well received at the time.

In the same story, Julie and her friend April are walking to class and harassed by Henry the school bully and his friends. Henry mocks Julie - who wears a leg brace due to catching polio when she was a little girl - by calling her a cripple. Henry's choice of phrase and teasing a young woman whose situation is not her fault - she couldn't help getting sick as a child - is never acceptable then or now, and makes the readers hate his character and sympathize with Julie.

I wouldn't write a racist or other derogatory term casually into narrative - for example 'John was driving down the road and he saw some Chinamen' or 'Bill's brother Chris was a faggot' - but to set a scene, for character development or to show prejudice then I will use terms that aren't politically correct.