What Should PYL Know About Other People in pyl's Life?

Not too long ago I ran into a woman in a vanilla setting, but after talking a while I figured she's a pyl - she was hinting pretty heavily, but was still surprised to notice that I knew what was going on. She was very confused with her own situation, so we ended up talking about D/s and I told about my relationship a lot more than I usually would in a setting like that.

Now it has turned out she has been instructed to report all conversations to her PYL. The way I found out was that the PYL approached me, letting me know that he knows what I've talked about with his pyl. And because he now knows I'm submissive, he expects a different set of respect and subordination from me than he would from a vanilla person.

I was pretty taken aback by this all. Not only did I find it completely idiotic, that he would expect me to treat him with more respect than any other total stranger to me just because he's a self-proclaimed Master of someone I've talked with a couple of times, but I was also really astounded by his attitude that it's perfectly fine for him to pry all the info about other people's lives from his pyl. He sets the rules in their relationship and no one should be bothered about it, it's D/s and all that jizzle.

The incident did leave me wondering about the limits and ethics of this kind of behavior. I certainly cannot remember agreeing to take part in their D/s dynamic and I felt very uncomfortable when I found out what had happened. He wants to know everything about his pyl's life, but by extention he got to know a whole lot about my life as well.

tl;rd - PYL finds out things about people in pyl's life, because pyl is expected to share everything with PYL.

How common is this? Do you think it's ok? Should the people in the pyl's life be informed that the PYL will get at least a cliffs notes version of everything? Are there limits as to what the PYL can expect be shared? How about reading e-mails, letters, postcards, text messages?

seela said:

Not too long ago I ran into a woman in a vanilla setting, but after talking a while I figured she's a pyl - she was hinting pretty heavily, but was still surprised to notice that I knew what was going on. She was very confused with her own situation, so we ended up talking about D/s and I told about my relationship a lot more than I usually would in a setting like that.

Now it has turned out she has been instructed to report all conversations to her PYL. The way I found out was that the PYL approached me, letting me know that he knows what I've talked about with his pyl. And because he now knows I'm submissive, he expects a different set of respect and subordination from me than he would from a vanilla person.

I was pretty taken aback by this all. Not only did I find it completely idiotic, that he would expect me to treat him with more respect than any other total stranger to me just because he's a self-proclaimed Master of someone I've talked with a couple of times, but I was also really astounded by his attitude that it's perfectly fine for him to pry all the info about other people's lives from his pyl. He sets the rules in their relationship and no one should be bothered about it, it's D/s and all that jizzle.

The incident did leave me wondering about the limits and ethics of this kind of behavior. I certainly cannot remember agreeing to take part in their D/s dynamic and I felt very uncomfortable when I found out what had happened. He wants to know everything about his pyl's life, but by extention he got to know a whole lot about my life as well.

tl;rd - PYL finds out things about people in pyl's life, because pyl is expected to share everything with PYL.

How common is this? Do you think it's ok? Should the people in the pyl's life be informed that the PYL will get at least a cliffs notes version of everything? Are there limits as to what the PYL can expect be shared? How about reading e-mails, letters, postcards, text messages?

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Yeah, I'd agree that was wankerish behaviour on that dude's behalf.

For myself, Mr likes to know who I'm hanging out with other than him. I keep him informed of my social engagements, but I don't tell him what happens or what we talk about etc. Just where I'll be and who with. If he did want to know more, then I'd try not to share other people's personal stuff. I don't think he cares to know though.

He's never wanted to look at emails and things like that. I doubt I would let him into my emails and stuff if he wanted though, but if he asked me who I emailed and what we talked about, then I would tell him. I don't have anything to hide, but it's a personal privacy thing.

However, I've given him access to things like my ebay account and stuff before, no dramas there.

I really don't like the sound of that sort of micro control though. It would make me feel not trusted. That would shit me.

I would expect anyone (vanilla, D/s, etc.) involved in a serious relationship to get get/give a cliffs notes version, including secrets, of friends' lives. It doesn't necessarily make it right but it happens. I think someone on here recently said something along the lines of secrets being only secrets if the person with the secret is the only person that knows it. If you tell someone something you want to be kept confidential, you always run the risk of that person telling another. I don't think it is done because a person enjoys gossip. Someone wouldn't be told many secrets before people found out he or she couldn't keep a secret.

I could be wrong but it seems that you were only approached and told all of this because of being involved in D/s yourself. That I do think is wrong. Why are you privy to the fact that all of your communication will be reported to this guy just because you are into D/s too? Furthermore, he's crazy to think that you should treat him any differently just because of his role. You didn't agree to submit to him. Just because he is a PYL and you're a pyl does not mean you should bow down to him. He should only expect the same courtesy you extend anyone.

As far as limits as to what the PYL reads, I think there should be some. For instance, if the pyl is a counselor or other person dealing with confidential information. Otherwise, I still assume that anything I say to another person could be passed along in a general sense of a person I know or even with my name attached. It doesn't make it right not does it make it wrong. It just reminds us to think of what we tell others.

I'm like Lizzie in that I don't tell specifics of the conversation but I tell general stuff. I've told him some things that after I thought he didn't really need to know. I wondered if I was breaching my friend's trust by doing so. I've been working to be more careful and not do that again. I do know my friend wouldn't mind (I asked and apologized) but I feel it's her place to tell, not mine.

seela said:

How common is this? Do you think it's ok? Should the people in the pyl's life be informed that the PYL will get at least a cliffs notes version of everything? Are there limits as to what the PYL can expect be shared? How about reading e-mails, letters, postcards, text messages?

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A pyl sharing what she talks about with her PYL I find it akin as a wife sharing with the husband. As such I do expect any pyl I talk with to share at least part of our conversations with her PYL and I have no problem with it.

That being said, I find the behavior of the PYL in your story to be appalling. Being privy to confidential information due to his relationship with the pyl is one thing, but acting out on it, approaching you and expecting privileges out of you simply because you too are a pyl ... is beyond the pale! Even more so considering he is a stranger to you.

Yes, I think the thing that bugged me the most was that he felt it's ok to let me know what he knows. I also realize that I wouldn't have been bothered at all if I wouldn't have known what had happened. He also didn't only know that I'm submissive, but he knew very well everything I had told his pyl. I was left wondering if she carried a recording device about her or what, but the accuracy in which she had told him everything was pretty astonishing.

In my relationship the PYL does know who I'm with, what I'm doing and quite often also gets a brief report on what I've been talking about with my friends. I, too, think it's normal behavior in a relationship to share this kind of stuff. But the difference is that he doesn't require me to tell him details about conversations and lets me use my own judgenment as to what has been confidential and what hasn't. For example, I can't imagine giving him details about my friends' medical issues or marital problems. I might tell that they have such problems, but I'd find it wrong to tell all the details.

So yeah, this happens in all relationships. But I can't say I've met many people who actually expect their pyls/wives/husbands to tell everything about others. It wasn't that the pyl had just chirpped things because she wanted to, but it was because the PYL required her to tell everything. That bothered me.

The problem I've had with this sort of reporting everything said to the pyl is when I'm not told about it beforehand. Case in point: a couple of months ago I was talking to somebody over IC who I'd met at the most recent munch. Although I hadn't said anything hugely personal to her, it still bothered me that her PYL also had access to her account and all the memos therein, and more so that she hadn't bothered to mention it. I can't stand that sort of thing.

i agree with rida, the icky thing about this situation is the odd and childish behavior of the Dom. he shouldn't expect any special behavior from you to him, just because of your chosen place in the food chain. and for him to come to you repeating all he learned...that's just juvenile.

but as far as the general question, what should a Dominant know about the people in their submissive's lives...well, as much as they wish. as a slave, i am not entitled to any privacy. there is no person in my life, or even any person i may directly communicate with online that my Master does not know about. He must approve all of these relationships and interactions. He knows about every conversation i have with another person, whether it takes place on the phone, online or in person (the last one being pretty rare cuz well i'm a house slave lol). i do not have to repeat verbatim details of the conversation, but the general gist of things and i have to be prepared to answer any questions he may ask.

and naturally he has complete access to everything online...he is the one who actually sets up all my passwords and such, so it would be more accurate to say that i am the one who has access to some of HIS accounts. i do not have a cell phone, and he monitors any calls that come in on the landline.

but of course, anyone who is in direct communication with me knows that i am a slave, and that there are no secrets from my Master. an exception would maybe be the neighborhood handyman, who says a few words to me when i go out to get the mail....and hopefully he doesn't mind my telling Daddy what he said to me about my eyes being so pretty. lol

I am guessing the PYL in question is fairly insecure in their role otherwise they would not feel the need to let you know they knew everything which had been discussed, then felt they could demand a higher level of respect from you...and that their pyl seemed confused about their own position speaks volumes about a PYL who really isn't managing too well.

As to the privacy issue, it is fairly normal for many in relationships, vanilla or D/s to share confidences. In our relationship I am not granted the right of privacy, though he has in recent times taken into account how breaking a confidence may reflect on another and due to his trust in me, he will on rare occasions respect the other persons right to keep their secret between them and me without having to share with him. It is understood if he feels there comes a need for him to know, I will then break the confidence. In the early stages of our being together he kept a more thorough check on everything, with time and depth though he no longer feels he has to check everything out...if there is anything he needs to know, he trusts me to inform him. In the situation you stepped into, they may still be in the fledgling stage, though I suspect it is more about insecurity and immaturity on the PYL's part.

Catalina

ultramarineblue said:

I would expect anyone (vanilla, D/s, etc.) involved in a serious relationship to get get/give a cliffs notes version, including secrets, of friends' lives. It doesn't necessarily make it right but it happens. I think someone on here recently said something along the lines of secrets being only secrets if the person with the secret is the only person that knows it. If you tell someone something you want to be kept confidential, you always run the risk of that person telling another.

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rida said:

That being said, I find the behavior of the PYL in your story to be appalling. Being privy to confidential information due to his relationship with the pyl is one thing, but acting out on it, approaching you and expecting privileges out of you simply because you too are a pyl ... is beyond the pale! Even more so considering he is a stranger to you.

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Yeah, what they said. My take on it is the the 'PYL' is very new, or he'd know better.

rida said:

A pyl sharing what she talks about with her PYL I find it akin as a wife sharing with the husband. As such I do expect any pyl I talk with to share at least part of our conversations with her PYL and I have no problem with it.

That being said, I find the behavior of the PYL in your story to be appalling. Being privy to confidential information due to his relationship with the pyl is one thing, but acting out on it, approaching you and expecting privileges out of you simply because you too are a pyl ... is beyond the pale! Even more so considering he is a stranger to you.

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Exactly.

MisterSir said:

The problem I've had with this sort of reporting everything said to the pyl is when I'm not told about it beforehand. Case in point: a couple of months ago I was talking to somebody over IC who I'd met at the most recent munch. Although I hadn't said anything hugely personal to her, it still bothered me that her PYL also had access to her account and all the memos therein, and more so that she hadn't bothered to mention it. I can't stand that sort of thing.

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That sucks, because you don't automatically assume someone else is reading your friend's emails. I guess it is a good reminder what little expectation of privacy we have in online communications. You just never know.

Does it change things if the PYL does/does not personally know the people the pyl is talking with and relating conversations about?

I have a vanilla husband and am seeking a sub (at least to me) woman. So that may bias my views on this topic.

I don't want to know every little detail about every little thing. If I can't trust my s/o, no matter what their role, to be honest with stuff "I need to/probably need to know," then there's larger problems going on. That said, many of my friends know that talking to me about something serious may mean my hubby's probably going to hear about it later, especially if I want a second opinion. If they request it stay in confidence, it does. If it were D/s related, I may share non-confidence info with my sub for her feedback.

People in relationships share things with one another and the deeper the relationship, the more they share. At least in my experience. Controlling every aspect of communication for someone is very Master/slave to me (and so not my thing) but if they like it, go them. Maybe she needs a button saying "all communictation will be reported back to my PYL."

And his behavior was ridiculous. He's not your PYL so why should you give him more respect than Adam because he's hers? Respect is earned.

I've always had an attraction to the idea of not being permitted privacy. I have not, however, experienced it to the extent where my email passwords were demanded nor expected to report every detail of conversations that I have with others. I do give very detailed dialogs of conversations when it is relivant to the conversation that I am having with my PYL or PYL type partner. But I'm a very open person in gerneral. My bubble of privacy is very thin skined.

The fact that he aproached you and told you that this was going on does give me the vibe that he's one of those that feels a sub is a sub to every Tom, Dick, and Harry that calls himself Master. It's not an uncommon belief among the "lifestyle" tho it doesn't seem as popular here.

I think I would be more creeped out by the fact that he wanted you to know that he knew, than that he knew. But I don't know that I'm totally bothered by the situation on her end. However, if it bothers her, then it is probably not the best situation for her.

Lizzie_Borden said:

Does it change things if the PYL does/does not personally know the people the pyl is talking with and relating conversations about?

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For me, yes and no. Both cases are equally disturbing to me, but for different reasons. If the PYL is somebody I know, I may not want them knowing everything I talk to the pyl about - possibly I'm being critical of something he does, possibly I know the pyl very well but the PYL less so and feel comfortable saying things to her I wouldn't to him, that sort of thing. But even if that's not the case, I really don't think I'd want somebody I don't know at all knowing things about me I don't want to share with the world at large. That's part of the reason I don't blog.

With respect to the other bit, I don't think the PYL telling seela the pyl had told him about her isn't a particularly bad thing in of itself - I could see myself doing something like that, for instance, but I'd do it as an easy way to introduce myself rather than in the context this PYL clearly did.

the guy sounds like a complete and utter wanker.

though I have no privacy over my emails or anything else. I think Lit is probably the most privacy I have and even then when i get a PM it also goes to my email account. I never thought of that as being especially 'subbish' but maybe I'm more sub than I give myself credit for.

seela said:

Not too long ago I ran into a woman in a vanilla setting, but after talking a while I figured she's a pyl - she was hinting pretty heavily, but was still surprised to notice that I knew what was going on. She was very confused with her own situation, so we ended up talking about D/s and I told about my relationship a lot more than I usually would in a setting like that.

Now it has turned out she has been instructed to report all conversations to her PYL. The way I found out was that the PYL approached me, letting me know that he knows what I've talked about with his pyl. And because he now knows I'm submissive, he expects a different set of respect and subordination from me than he would from a vanilla person.

I was pretty taken aback by this all. Not only did I find it completely idiotic, that he would expect me to treat him with more respect than any other total stranger to me just because he's a self-proclaimed Master of someone I've talked with a couple of times, but I was also really astounded by his attitude that it's perfectly fine for him to pry all the info about other people's lives from his pyl. He sets the rules in their relationship and no one should be bothered about it, it's D/s and all that jizzle.

The incident did leave me wondering about the limits and ethics of this kind of behavior. I certainly cannot remember agreeing to take part in their D/s dynamic and I felt very uncomfortable when I found out what had happened. He wants to know everything about his pyl's life, but by extention he got to know a whole lot about my life as well.

tl;rd - PYL finds out things about people in pyl's life, because pyl is expected to share everything with PYL.

How common is this? Do you think it's ok? Should the people in the pyl's life be informed that the PYL will get at least a cliffs notes version of everything? Are there limits as to what the PYL can expect be shared? How about reading e-mails, letters, postcards, text messages?

Click to expand...

It seems as though he might be a little "impressed" with himself as a PYL......I would let him know in NO uncertain terms that my particular pyl choice has nothing to do with him and he will be treated like that dick he has chosen to be to you......

I hope you laughed in his face.

And you might pass on to the pyl that she should let people know about this arrangement before she starts hinting around about her lifestyle in order to draw other people out about theirs.

Lizzie_Borden said:

Does it change things if the PYL does/does not personally know the people the pyl is talking with and relating conversations about?

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Good question.

I would imagine that for myself, if I had known the PYL I might have either edited my words (knowing that some of it would get to him anyway) or asked her to keep it confidential.

As I said, I have no problem with information being shared with partners. And would even imagine that with a pyl she might have even stronger obligations to report everything.

And yes, if I ask someone to keep something confidential, I think it would be courteous of them to let me know if they share/have to share with their PYL.

Personally I have a pyl friend that I know the PYL has free access to her e-mails. She told me in advance and it did not bother me. And I do not edit myself. I don't personally know the PYL but I trust my pyl friend and her judgment.

As for my end, nor Hubby nor the Sadist want to have total access. I do confide/talk with both of them, however I would also keep a confidence to myself if so asked.

seela said:

How common is this? Do you think it's ok? Should the people in the pyl's life be informed that the PYL will get at least a cliffs notes version of everything? Are there limits as to what the PYL can expect be shared? How about reading e-mails, letters, postcards, text messages?

Click to expand...

I have no idea how common it is in a D/s context, but like some others have said, any time I speak to someone that I know is in a close relationship of some kind, whether it be long-term romantic, D/s, whatever, I work under the assumption that some or all of what I say may get relayed to their SO. I've found out that friends in completely non-D/s relationships told every single detail of something I said to their SO. While it may not be comforting to have secrets shared, it's pretty common I think. Any time I talk to someone online that I don't know completely, I assume someone other than the intended recipient is reading what I wrote. Spouses get nosy, techies at work or wherever sometimes get nosy, etc. That part IS common. It's more polite on the pyl's part to make people aware if it's a mandated "you will tell me everything!" situation, but still, I think it's a good practice to just assume any conversation will not necessarily stay in the strictest of confidences when talking to anyone.

The only thing about the story that bothered me was the way that PYL behaved towards you. While you may be a pyl, you are not his pyl. Like others said, I hope you laughed in his face.

The only person I tell everything to is my own PYL/fiance because he's the only one not likely to share my secrets. B has access to all my emails, accounts, and so on. He never demanded it, I gave them to him over time ("hey babe, I'm driving and can't bring up that address K emailed me, can you log in please and read it to me?"), and if he uses them once he has them, I don't care because I've told him pretty much everything in there anyway. He doesn't demand that I tell him either, but we talk, sometimes I want another opinion of something I'm thinking about, etc. To my knowledge, he never has used those account passwords unless asked (because I pretty much tell him everything anyway so why read the boring details when he can get the cliff notes).

Micro-management pisses me off in general. Though, if both parties are into that, fine.

I think the worst case of it I heard of, the one that alarmed me was a new PYL coming in to a single mother's life and wanting / demanding to know way too much too soon about her kids and such.



That being said. I'm an open book to my husband if he wants to know things I make it all available. I used to send him cyber sessions so he could say, "No stop" for instance. He doesn't want to know a lot of stuff. I don't blame him everyday crap isn't that fun to know or get emotionally into.

However we do apprise each other of conversations, particularly with dysfunctional relatives, so we are both aware and covered when certain claims are made and our words made when the other wasn't there was twisted. It has helped us avoid stepping in tons of shit.

the captians wench said:

I've always had an attraction to the idea of not being permitted privacy. I have not, however, experienced it to the extent where my email passwords were demanded nor expected to report every detail of conversations that I have with others. I do give very detailed dialogs of conversations when it is relivant to the conversation that I am having with my PYL or PYL type partner. But I'm a very open person in gerneral. My bubble of privacy is very thin skined.

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This is true for myself as well. But for some reason I never really thought of my not being permitted privacy to extend out to all other people and details about their personal lives.

I'm fine with a cliff notes version of what I talk about being passed on, but in this case it was a lot more detailed. And then there was the creepy encounter, where he repeated me my opinions and details about the conversation I'd had earlier.

MisterSir said:

For me, yes and no. Both cases are equally disturbing to me, but for different reasons. If the PYL is somebody I know, I may not want them knowing everything I talk to the pyl about - possibly I'm being critical of something he does, possibly I know the pyl very well but the PYL less so and feel comfortable saying things to her I wouldn't to him, that sort of thing. But even if that's not the case, I really don't think I'd want somebody I don't know at all knowing things about me I don't want to share with the world at large. That's part of the reason I don't blog.

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I'm pretty sure the bolded part is why he came to talk to me in the first place. The pyl was very confused, distressed might even be the right word. Sort of a deer in headlights, not sure if she's in the right kind of a relationship with a right person. I told her to think about whether it is the right choice for her and that's when I told about my relationship, because it works in a completely different way and it's still very much D/s.

Clearly, the PYL took that as someone challenging his way of handling things, although I made extra sure that I was being very objective and definitely not judgemental in my wordings when I talked with the pyl. I got the feeling that the PYL didn't really appreciate the pyl talking with other people into D/s, because she might get funny ideas or something. The pyl and I run into each other regularly, and the last time we met she didn't even greet me. Apparently I'm a risk or some such.

rida said:

Good question.

I would imagine that for myself, if I had known the PYL I might have either edited my words (knowing that some of it would get to him anyway) or asked her to keep it confidential.

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That's pretty much how I see it. If they were close friends of mine, I wouldn't mind the PYL getting all the details as well. And if I told something clearly confidential, I'd like to know beforehand that the pyl has to tell everything so that I could ask for confidentiality or choose not to talk about the matter at all.

And I was close to laughing at his face, when he started one of his lectures about pyl's role and proper behavior with "in [his] over 30 years of experience as a Master..." I mean, has anything good ever come of out anyone telling their experience as a PYL or pyl in years?

seela said:

T



I'm pretty sure the bolded part is why he came to talk to me in the first place. The pyl was very confused, distressed might even be the right word. Sort of a deer in headlights, not sure if she's in the right kind of a relationship with a right person. I told her to think about whether it is the right choice for her and that's when I told about my relationship, because it works in a completely different way and it's still very much D/s.

Clearly, the PYL took that as someone challenging his way of handling things, although I made extra sure that I was being very objective and definitely not judgemental in my wordings when I talked with the pyl. I got the feeling that the PYL didn't really appreciate the pyl talking with other people into D/s, because she might get funny ideas or something. The pyl and I run into each other regularly, and the last time we met she didn't even greet me. Apparently I'm a risk or some such.

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Perhaps you were more of a victim than you realised. Though you were careful with your wording, chances are the pyl did not relate what you said word for word, and may have initially been looking for someone they could use to back up something they were (or wanted to) objecting to doing. The whole purpose of the discussion may have been to place you in that position as back up for their argument, and their choice of words may have delivered a different message to the non-judgmental one you spoke. (The PYL still sounds like a wanker though)


Catalina

Stella_Omega said:

I hope you laughed in his face.

And you might pass on to the pyl that she should let people know about this arrangement before she starts hinting around about her lifestyle in order to draw other people out about theirs.

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really REALLY good point.

I suspect she could find herself very socially isolated.

seela said:

"in [his] over 30 years of experience as a Master..." I mean, has anything good ever come of out anyone telling their experience as a PYL or pyl in years?

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QFT..

Kybele said:

really REALLY good point.

I suspect she could find herself very socially isolated.

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*nods*