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The 'ethics' of casual 'bdsm'

CutieMouse said:
My relationships are closed, monogamous, and based on affection, attraction, common interests, enthusiasm, respect... funny all those words are often found in definitions of the word "love".
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I have addressed this issue many times. You have said your relationship involves neither love nor commitment.

I don't make lifetime commitments to people after only knowing them 3 weeks, nor do I claim any relationship I enter will stay intact until one of us dies.
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I do not claim any relationship I enter will "stay intact until one of us dies" either. I have spoken of three relationships in my life. Only my wife died.

The first ended when we realized we were fundamentally incompatible. It lasted six years, and the end was nothing less than tragic. Neither of us were to blame, we were both very much in love, but we had a fundamental disagreement we could not bridge.

With the second we parted when I discovered the lady was not being honest with me about her intentions for our future. The relationship lasted four years. That I had been deceived damaged my ability to trust her. When I learned the truth I recognized we were not compatible. It was her hope that in time I would come around to her point of view, but I explained that by pretending to be something she wasn't, and leading me to believe this was what she wanted to be, she had misled me deliberately and thus demonstrated disrespect for me and my right to choose the direction my life was to take.

I recognize that sometimes, despite the best of intentions and the sincerest love, it is not possible for two people to continue sharing their lives together. But until that problem arises, it is their choice as well as intent to love one another, respect one another and trust one another enough to share their lives and futures together.

As for making such a commitment after knowing someone for a short period of time, there is no schedule for falling in love. If it happens at all, it happens when it happens.

That doesn't mean we always fall in love with the right person for us. Sometimes we learn this early in a relationship, sometimes it takes years to surface.

But the lack of a guarantee it will last is no reason for not falling in love.

I didn't address your views of closed poly relationships, as my opinion would probably be viewed as impolite.
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I don't think I've expressed any view regarding closed poly relationships.

To me, they are no different from monogamous relationships, except that they involve more than two people.

Just as I see no difference between same-sex marriage and straight marriage, aside from the genders involved.
 
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chy_girl said:
*blinks*

Bloved, dear, don't you think there is the smallest of possibilities that you are projecting your own self-loathing and self-hatred onto everyone here in an attempt to not only generalize/normalize some of the emotions that are so hard for you to deal with and perhaps making yourself feel a little better in the process?


*blinkblink*
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I rather doubt I'd be able to handle so many adversaries so well if I suffered from low self-esteem.

Indeed, it is because of my self-love that I am able to see all of you as you once were, innocent babies who knew nothing of abuse.

To become abusive, or to permit abuse requires some powerful influences early in life.

By recognizing there was a time when you knew nothing of that, I can recognize that your abusive nature is not of your own doing, but rather a defense mechanism developed over time from dealing with abusive situations.
 
So what were you doing in a BBW group? Reading the Fetlife memo you posted.

I thought you were a guy named Robert? Are you really a big boned girl named Roberta?
 
BLoved said:
I have addressed this issue many times. You have said your relationship involves neither love nor commitment.
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No.

At the time we began this circular discussion, I was in a relationship only a month or so old. I said that he and I did not base that relationship on the concept of "True Love" - instead we based it upon mutual respect, care, affection, communication, etc.

Re: your comment on my views of commitment - I don't believe anything in life is guaranteed. I am with the person I am with for the [healthy] duration of the relationship - meaning 12 years in the case of my marriage, 5 in the case of my first post-divorce relationship, and however long it's been since I met The Man. The only poly relationship I've been in was closed, and with a couple who were (and still are) my best friends. We;d known one another about 6 years before our brief intimate relationship; we've known one another 14 years total, and she and I are still best friends and have shared a house the last 3 years. Do we love one another? Of course! Do we define our friendship as "True Love"? Gracious no!

How are those experiences much different than your relationships as you've outlined, below? Oh that's right - you use the word "Love" and I don't. Somehow that makes your relationships more real or superior or something. (Which, in case you were unaware, is the impression you are leaving - that you feel your relationships are somehow more real or superior than anyone elses.)

I do not claim any relationship I enter will "stay intact until one of us dies" either. I have spoken of three relationships in my life. Only my wife died.

The first ended when we realized we were fundamentally incompatible. It lasted six years, and the end was nothing less than tragic. Neither of us were to blame, we were both very much in love, but we had a fundamental disagreement we could not bridge.

With the second we parted when I discovered the lady was not being honest with me about her intentions for our future. The relationship lasted four years. That I had been deceived damaged my ability to trust her. When I learned the truth I recognized we were not compatible. It was her hope that in time I would come around to her point of view, but I explained that by pretending to be something she wasn't, and leading me to believe this was what she wanted to be, she had misled me deliberately and thus demonstrated disrespect for me and my right to choose the direction my life was to take.

I recognize that sometimes, despite the best of intentions and the sincerest love, it is not possible for two people to continue sharing their lives together. But until that problem arises, it is their choice as well as intent to love one another, respect one another and trust one another enough to share their lives and futures together.

As for making such a commitment after knowing someone for a short period of time, there is no schedule for falling in love. If it happens at all, it happens when it happens.

That doesn't mean we always fall in love with the right person for us. Sometimes we learn this early in a relationship, sometimes it takes years to surface.

But the lack of a guarantee it will last is no reason for not falling in love.
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In all honesty if you had approached the forum and your concept of relationships with this degree of respect and maturity (meaning, acknowledging common ground), I don't think you would have been met with as much hostility as you have garnered. Because as I've been trying to get you to understand for weeks now - there ain't a hell of a lot of difference between you and me. You use the word Love to define your relationships; I don't.

I don't think I've expressed any view regarding closed poly relationships.

To me, they are no different from monogamous relationships, except that they involve more than two people.

Just as I see no difference between same-sex marriage and straight marriage, aside from the genders involved.
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You have in your writings; I've formed an opinion based upon that and your posts abut True Love.
 
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BLoved said:
I rather doubt I'd be able to handle so many adversaries so well if I suffered from low self-esteem.

Indeed, it is because of my self-love that I am able to see all of you as you once were, innocent babies who knew nothing of abuse.

To become abusive, or to permit abuse requires some powerful influences early in life.

By recognizing there was a time when you knew nothing of that, I can recognize that your abusive nature is not of your own doing, but rather a defense mechanism developed over time from dealing with abusive situations.
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I never said anything about low self-esteem. Just self-loathing and self-hatred.

Is your father still alive? Did he co-habitat with your mother while you growing up?
 
Not to be a pain, but once again what do you BLoved define as Casual BDSM I have seen what others think you have said I want to hear what you have to say?
 
WriterDom said:
So what were you doing in a BBW group?
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Talking about how obesity was a contributing cause to my wife's death, and the death of the woman I'd loved before my wife (my second Beloved).

I learned from my mother that she had died a few months after my wife.

I thought you were a guy named Robert?
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I am. Somewhere in this discussion I've posted two pictures of me.
 
BLoved said:
Is your father still alive?

He died when I was ten, the result of injuries sustained in a car accident.



If by this you mean did my father and mother live together, yes.

They loved each other very much.
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Did your mother ever find a new love? A new life partner? Ever date?
 
RuReal said:
Not to be a pain, but once again what do you BLoved define as Casual BDSM I have seen what others think you have said I want to hear what you have to say?
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My apologies for the oversight. I did see your earlier request, and had every intention of answering.

Obviously I got distracted. Thank you for your patience.

Casual 'bdsm' is any kind of encounter involving bdsm-like behaviour but deliberately excluding any kind of intimate emotional bonding: love.

Terms like "no strings attached" and "one night stand" are typical.

Essentially casual 'bdsm' segregates intimate behaviour (bdsm and/or sex) from intimate emotional bonding (love).

It is my belief intimate behaviour and intimate emotional bonding are linked, and to engage in the behaviour where there is no chance for the bonding is a form of emotional abuse that damages self-esteem.
 
chy_girl said:
Did your mother ever find a new love? A new life partner? Ever date?
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She remarried when I was 16. The marriage lasted for about ten years (turned out he was an alcoholic, mom climbed into the bottle with him, and then managed to climb back out).

Her friends introduced her to a wonderful man, whom she married after a couple of years of dating.

I could not have asked for a better man to take the place of my father. He worshipped her.

He died from cancer a couple of years ago. My mother, now in her late 70s, has said she will not accept another, and I understand.
 
BLoved said:
She remarried when I was 16. The marriage lasted for about ten years (turned out he was an alcoholic, mom climbed into the bottle with him, and then managed to climb back out).

Her friends introduced her to a wonderful man, whom she married after a couple of years of dating.

I could not have asked for a better man to take the place of my father. He worshipped her.

He died from cancer a couple of years ago. My mother, now in her late 70s, has said she will not accept another, and I understand.
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Did you ever ask your mother why she stayed married to the alcoholic for so long or why she chose to deal with his addiction (and to "follow him into the bottle")?

I can only imagine how hard that must have been to have such a man take authority over your home and mother after having been just you and her for so long.
 
chy_girl said:
Did you ever ask your mother why she stayed married to the alcoholic for so long or why she chose to deal with his addiction (and to "follow him into the bottle")?
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Initially she was just being sociable. But then she tried keeping up, and that led to problems with her relationships. And as is often the case, there was a lot of denial regarding her drinking problem.

I can only imagine how hard that must have been to have such a man take authority over your home and mother after having been just you and her for so long.
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Actually, my younger brother and I.

And I rather think I accepted him with a certain degree of grace. Before they married my mother asked me for my permission.

At 16 I explained to her that my brother and I would only be living at home for a few years, after which we would each leave the nest.

She, on the other hand, was considering a life-long commitment.

I urged her to listen to her heart, and make the decision that was right for her.

All that mattered to me was that she was happy, with a good man in her life who loved her.

I didn't have a problem with him until he started becoming verbally abusive towards my mother. I moved out shortly after that.
 
BLoved said:
My apologies for the oversight. I did see your earlier request, and had every intention of answering.

Obviously I got distracted. Thank you for your patience.

Casual 'bdsm' is any kind of encounter involving bdsm-like behaviour but deliberately excluding any kind of intimate emotional bonding: love.

Terms like "no strings attached" and "one night stand" are typical.

Essentially casual 'bdsm' segregates intimate behaviour (bdsm and/or sex) from intimate emotional bonding (love).

It is my belief intimate behaviour and intimate emotional bonding are linked, and to engage in the behaviour where there is no chance for the bonding is a form of emotional abuse that damages self-esteem.
Click to expand...

Interesting so then how do you define BDSM? I know that from what you said above you are putting it in the same category as sex, but do you count simple play such as flogging, rope bondage, and edge play in that same category?
 
BLoved said:
Initially she was just being sociable. But then she tried keeping up, and that led to problems with her relationships. And as is often the case, there was a lot of denial regarding her drinking problem.



Actually, my younger brother and I.

And I rather think I accepted him with a certain degree of grace. Before they married my mother asked me for my permission.

At 16 I explained to her that my brother and I would only be living at home for a few years, after which we would each leave the nest.

She, on the other hand, was considering a life-long commitment.

I urged her to listen to her heart, and make the decision that was right for her.

All that mattered to me was that she was happy, with a good man in her life who loved her.

I didn't have a problem with him until he started becoming verbally abusive towards my mother. I moved out shortly after that.
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So her second marriage was abuse in a few different ways. As a normal teenage boy, didn't you find it frustrating and heartbreaking that the woman you loved, the woman who gave you life and cared for you and raised you despite her own hardships was willingly submitting herself to such an abuse environment? That she was willing to accept such treatment in the name of love?
 
RuReal said:
Interesting so then how do you define BDSM?
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"First and foremost, bdsm is a tool for expressing love and respect."

-- excerpt from my essay: "Love and Respect"

I know that from what you said above you are putting it in the same category as sex, but do you count simple play such as flogging, rope bondage, and edge play in that same category?
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I do.

They all involve behaviour which requires a high degree of trust on the part of the submissive, and thus all are linked to intimate emotional bonding (love).

The more intimate the behaviour, the greater the trust required.
 
chy_girl said:
So her second marriage was abuse in a few different ways. As a normal teenage boy, didn't you find it frustrating and heartbreaking that the woman you loved, the woman who gave you life and cared for you and raised you despite her own hardships was willingly submitting herself to such an abuse environment? That she was willing to accept such treatment in the name of love?
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I practiced a hands-off policy when it came to my mother's marriages. As I said, I knew I wasn't going to be around long enough that my personal feelings should enter the equation.

I do recall one situation where I was present as he verbally abused her.

I was furious.

I managed to distract him enough that he forgot about her and ended up squaring off with me out on the driveway. It never came down to blows (tho' I was ready if it did), and he stopped for as long as I was still there (which wasn't very long, I moved out not long after).

And I wouldn't say what she did was in the "name of love". Several years later, after she'd divorced, she would visit and talk of how he had eroded her self-esteem.

It took my first Beloved and I quite a bit of effort to encourage her to hope for love again, and when we heard about the man she met (who became her third husband) we practically pushed her into his arms.

Her third husband wrote her poetry nearly every day. She still reads them and remembers when they were younger and in love.

Understand that regardless of what she's done, my mom is no saint. There are still aspects of her personality with which I have problems (a certain degree of reserve, no doubt the result of growing up in Liverpool during the blitz). Nonetheless, I am the first person to recognize the sacrifices she made for my brother and I.

And it probably helps that she and I have the same birthday (I arrived just before her birthday cake).
 
BLoved said:
"First and foremost, bdsm is a tool for expressing love and respect."

-- excerpt from my essay: "Love and Respect"



I do.

They all involve behaviour which requires a high degree of trust on the part of the submissive, and thus all are linked to intimate emotional bonding (love).

The more intimate the behaviour, the greater the trust required.
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Maybe your flogging works a bit different than my flogging and with due respect to your writing ability I am not sure how much you really understand BDSM.

Yes Trust is a very large part of BDSM if you do not trust the person that is in control of the situation it does not work. I have been part of flogging and electrical demonstrations for the general public. I have been in dungeon for play and I will say that what goes in there does not always involve love, but it does involve trust.

My play with my wife differs a great deal from any play that goes on with others. Different levels and different things done then again I am not having sex with any of them. When we start going into edge play more I will have someone I trust show me what they are doing and how to do it on my partner and other people that we know and trust.

Am I in love with any of these people except my wife not that I know of. Will I play with them and do I trust them yes I do. There will be no love involved in they play that I do with these people, but it will be good play. What type of BDSM environment are you running into where you see negative abusive play going on.
 
BLoved said:
I practiced a hands-off policy when it came to my mother's marriages. As I said, I knew I wasn't going to be around long enough that my personal feelings should enter the equation.

I do recall one situation where I was present as he verbally abused her.

I was furious.

I managed to distract him enough that he forgot about her and ended up squaring off with me out on the driveway. It never came down to blows (tho' I was ready if it did), and he stopped for as long as I was still there (which wasn't very long, I moved out not long after).

And I wouldn't say what she did was in the "name of love". Several years later, after she'd divorced, she would visit and talk of how he had eroded her self-esteem.

It took my first Beloved and I quite a bit of effort to encourage her to hope for love again, and when we heard about the man she met (who became her third husband) we practically pushed her into his arms.

Her third husband wrote her poetry nearly every day. She still reads them and remembers when they were younger and in love.

Understand that regardless of what she's done, my mom is no saint. There are still aspects of her personality with which I have problems (a certain degree of reserve, no doubt the result of growing up in Liverpool during the blitz). Nonetheless, I am the first person to recognize the sacrifices she made for my brother and I.

And it probably helps that she and I have the same birthday (I arrived just before her birthday cake).
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Even if you were able to maintain such a strict boundary when it came to her relationships, surly you were still able to recognize (if only to yourself) that it was a less than productive environment for her and your younger brother to be in. And it isn't uncommon for kids to carry a kind of survivor's guilt when they finally leave an abusive household where loved one's have stayed behind. Especially when the one leaving acted as a protector or a shield for the one being abuse.

Did you and your younger brother ever discuss the abuse or how things were in the house after you left?
 
RuReal said:
What type of BDSM environment are you running into where you see negative abusive play going on.
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What makes you think I want to be anywhere near a situation where "negative abusive play" is going on?

The victims with whom I've spoken describe the abusive environment as one where "There will be no love involved in they play that I do with these people".

Essentially, their emotional/psychological status is of no consequence to players.

All that is required is a pulse and a "yes".
 
Wait, is this about casual sexual relationships or about people who casually partake of BDSM within their myriad of monogamous sex play, once in a while? I'm sure there are some hardcore BDSMers out there who think it's unethical to dabble, even as a committed couple. A make it your lifestyle or get out sort of thing.
 
chy_girl said:
Even if you were able to maintain such a strict boundary when it came to her relationships, surly you were still able to recognize (if only to yourself) that it was a less than productive environment for her and your younger brother to be in. And it isn't uncommon for kids to carry a kind of survivor's guilt when they finally leave an abusive household where loved one's have stayed behind. Especially when the one leaving acted as a protector or a shield for the one being abuse.
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It was my mother who told me to go.

Did you and your younger brother ever discuss the abuse or how things were in the house after you left?
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No.

Over the years my brother developed a drinking problem akin to that of my mother's second husband.

We are not close because of this (tho' some situations do tend to bring us together).
 
Epmd607 said:
Wait, is this about casual sexual relationships or about people who casually partake of BDSM within their myriad of monogamous sex play, once in a while?
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The former. Not the latter.

I'm sure there's some hardcore BDSMers out there who think it's unethical to dabble, even as a committed couple. A make it your lifestyle or get out sort of thing.
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I do not subscribe to that point of view.
 
BLoved said:
It was my mother who told me to go.



No.

Over the years my brother developed a drinking problem akin to that of my mother's second husband.

We are not close because of this (tho' some situations do tend to bring us together).
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It must have been hard for you to hear her ask you to leave. Especially after being there for her for so many years. For giving her that part of yourself and your childhood only to have to tossed back at you. Many people would have thought of that as their mother choosing something/someone over them.

How did you deal with it when she told you to go? Where did you go?

It must have been heart breaking to see this man, this person who was supposed to lead and care for your family, lead both of them to addiction. Have you ever wondered why it was that out of the three of you you were the one who never picked up? Or did you pick up for a short time before you realized the path you were on?
 
BLoved said:
What makes you think I want to be anywhere near a situation where "negative abusive play" is going on?

The victims with whom I've spoken describe the abusive environment as one where "There will be no love involved in they play that I do with these people".

Essentially, their emotional/psychological status is of no consequence to players.

All that is required is a pulse and a "yes".
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You have seen some strange BDSM practiced then emotional psychological state is the responsibility of the top and the bottom and always has been. If one does not understand that then one should not be topping anyone. You do not seem to have been exposed to a healthy BDSM environment and because of this you have some very different views on what BDSM is.

Then again your refusal to go to any environment causes issues. How can you correct negative issues and add to the community as a whole if you refuse to be part of it. If something is wrong bring it up and fix it otherwise you are as bad as they are. I am sorry if that sounds harsh, but that is how I see things and my responsibility to my fellow BDSMer. Because of this I am questioning your ability to top anyone a top needs to be strong enough to effect change and make sure everyone around them is safe and you seem to have problems with that.

Correct me if I am seeing this incorrectly. One does not have to be large to do this. I know a lady who can fit into overhead storage. She identifies herself as a switch, but her nature and interaction with her partner is very Top heavy on her part. I have seen her take control of situations where she thought things were not right and put her foot down. I guess my question is what is your excuse lover of people because I am not seeing the love hell I know a bottom who has done the same.

Once again my question is what is wrong with your interactions that you cannot effect change when bad things occur?
 
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