Weakness

rida said:

Those are the stupid ones, the ones that get caught quickly.

The dangerous ones, are the highly intelligent, good at debating, confusing, and verbally overwhelm their prey. Those ones, also often come out as highly reassuring and checking all the safety boxes.

Click to expand...

In the 2+ years I've quested for a beloved I've yet to see such a predator.

Predators are incapable of defending the ethics of casual 'bdsm' and thus resort to verbal abuse, working in groups to divert or shut down any discussion on the ethics of bdsm.

They deny the existence of abuse within the casual community and if examples are provided they do their best to paint the victims as stupid, weak, deserving of abuse, etc.

One need not look very hard at the on-line sites to quickly determine there are no love-based bdsm websites available. All of the major sites cater almost exclusively to the casual community, and heaven help the poor soul whose ethics reject casual 'bdsm' and says so openly.

The casual community has a very thin skin when it comes to criticism of casual 'bdsm'. They are quite happy to censor opposing points of view so that the only point of view a novice sees is theirs, thus presenting the appearance that the casual community is "The One True Way" for everyone who wishes to engage in bdsm.

A refusal to discuss ethics, a refusal to admit to the existence of abuse, a need to present their behaviour as the "One True Way" while actively censoring all opposing views ... compounded with their school-yard bullying tactics whenever anyone dares to challenge their authority ...

Predators are not hard to detect when you know what to look for.

Keroin said:

But here’s the thing…what is it? What is real weakness, what is real strength? Does it bother other people to be weak? Do they even think or care about strength or weakness? Does it matter?

Click to expand...

IMHO, real weakness is any particular part of yourself that does not conform to your own particular self-image and wants/needs, and therefore, is detrimental to how you behave, think, choose, etc. Real strength, therefore, is that which near-perfectly does, and as such, you benefit from.

To me, weaknesses and strengths are merely the 'defining shape' of a 'jigsaw puzzle piece'- just as you do not stick a corner piece in the middle of a puzzle, one should not be placed in a situation where what is needed to accomplish something happens to be that person's weakness (unless it is for the sole purpose of turning that weakness into a strength), nor should one be placed in a situation where their their strengths are not used to their fullest potential. Strengths and weaknesses are merely things to be used and exploited, either to a person's detriment, or to their advantage... all depending on 'where you put the puzzle piece'.

DVS said:

I don't consider myself weak. I've always had bad luck in my life so consequently, I've always had to fight for anything I got. And some things that were out of my control really bothered me, because I am very much into control. I've never even been drunk enough to be out of control, because I don't like the feeling.

But, with my recent situation, I've not given up and even when I thought it was hopeless, I kept looking for some avenue to take. There are times when you feel it's hopeless, but that's when you can't give up.

I can express emotion without feeling weak. I can't explain it, but it actually makes me feel stronger. I work well under stress and that helps a lot, too. When the pressure is on, I seem to concentrate more and everything just slides into place. Now, if I could only get that to work for me without being under stress.

Click to expand...

Your current situation is terrible, BTW, and I think you're handling yourself admirably. I wouldn't say I like stress but I do like a challenge, a deadline, anything the forces me to step up my game.

I know people, men and women, who can express their emotions, show vulnerability, and come across as strong and capable and yet there are others who do so and appear just the opposite to me. Perhaps it's the method? Time and place? Frequency? I'm not sure.

subish2009 said:

Exactly! It's like strength in the face of societal expectations! Like a giant middle finger to the world. The strength to be yourself...be authentic...make no apologies for what you are... That can be very admirable, very rare, and very hot in a man.

Click to expand...

Confidence and belief in oneself can be very sexy.

rida said:

Those are the stupid ones, the ones that get caught quickly.

The dangerous ones, are the highly intelligent, good at debating, confusing, and verbally overwhelm their prey. Those ones, also often come out as highly reassuring and checking all the safety boxes.

Click to expand...

Oh, I've met a few of those. I dated one. Very dangerous.

Ravenwind said:

IMHO, real weakness is any particular part of yourself that does not conform to your own particular self-image and wants/needs, and therefore, is detrimental to how you behave, think, choose, etc. Real strength, therefore, is that which near-perfectly does, and as such, you benefit from.

To me, weaknesses and strengths are merely the 'defining shape' of a 'jigsaw puzzle piece'- just as you do not stick a corner piece in the middle of a puzzle, one should not be placed in a situation where what is needed to accomplish something happens to be that person's weakness (unless it is for the sole purpose of turning that weakness into a strength), nor should one be placed in a situation where their their strengths are not used to their fullest potential. Strengths and weaknesses are merely things to be used and exploited, either to a person's detriment, or to their advantage... all depending on 'where you put the puzzle piece'.

Click to expand...

Interesting analogy. We can't always control our environment, though. At some point, we're going to find ourselves in situations where our weaknesses are in the spotlight.


Just for the record, I don't believe a person, myself included, should not have any weaknesses, that's ridiculous.

BLoved said:

In the 2+ years I've quested for a beloved I've yet to see such a predator.

Predators are incapable of defending the ethics of casual 'bdsm' and thus resort to verbal abuse, working in groups to divert or shut down any discussion on the ethics of bdsm.

They deny the existence of abuse within the casual community and if examples are provided they do their best to paint the victims as stupid, weak, deserving of abuse, etc.

One need not look very hard at the on-line sites to quickly determine there are no love-based bdsm websites available. All of the major sites cater almost exclusively to the casual community, and heaven help the poor soul whose ethics reject casual 'bdsm' and says so openly.

The casual community has a very thin skin when it comes to criticism of casual 'bdsm'. They are quite happy to censor opposing points of view so that the only point of view a novice sees is theirs, thus presenting the appearance that the casual community is "The One True Way" for everyone who wishes to engage in bdsm.

A refusal to discuss ethics, a refusal to admit to the existence of abuse, a need to present their behaviour as the "One True Way" while actively censoring all opposing views ... compounded with their school-yard bullying tactics whenever anyone dares to challenge their authority ...

Predators are not hard to detect when you know what to look for.

Click to expand...

[hijack]

This is a whole thread topic in and of itself... actually we haven't had a good meaty discussion of this sort of thing (without derailing another thread) in a while.

I won't post my views of the opinions expressed here, and am off to work out before going into the shop, but I for one would be willing to discuss "casual BDSM/predators/True Love/etc" in a separate thread. And by separate thread I do not mean a posting of links of BL's writings. I mean a discussion.

(Posted publicly as BL apparently has PMs turned off.)

[/hijack]

As for weakenssessess... as convoluted as it may sound, sometimes I believe my greatest strengths are my greatest weaknesses, and my greatest weaknesses are my biggest strengths.

CutieMouse said:

As for weakenssessess... as convoluted as it may sound, sometimes I believe my greatest strengths are my greatest weaknesses, and my greatest weaknesses are my biggest strengths.

Click to expand...

That they can be. It's all in how you manage them.

rida said:

Those are the stupid ones, the ones that get caught quickly.

The dangerous ones, are the highly intelligent, good at debating, confusing, and verbally overwhelm their prey. Those ones, also often come out as highly reassuring and checking all the safety boxes.

Click to expand...

There is a reason a public SM culture exists. People are only SO exhibitionistic. Part of the entire part parcel and purpose of this is because when play gets serious, no matter how much lurrrrrve exists between two people it's sometimes good to have more around if things go south.

If I put someone into a predicament I'm too small to get him out of in .6 seconds, how LOVING is it of me to go "no no, I don't want a spotter."

This is fine and good until people play hard.

And you know what? People play hard.

If you actually want to deal with how humans behave and MITIGATE risk, that's the reason for these parties. If you are actively campaigning to scare people off from mitigated risk scenarios, you are a fucking menace.

If it's not your cup of tea, that's fine. But spreading mythology which sounds like it was written by the Meese commission is detrimental and we're going to debunk your bullshit.

And for someone to ignore that fact and scare people away from that safety net is irresponsible. Where do more people get raped, attacked, and abused - in private in hotel rooms or at major SM dungeons? Tick tock.

Unless you are looking for someone to stuff into a barrel yourself, these parties might be a "not for me" but hardy something to dissuade people from.

Netzach said:

There is a reason a public SM culture exists. People are only SO exhibitionistic. Part of the entire part parcel and purpose of this is because when play gets serious, no matter how much lurrrrrve exists between two people it's sometimes good to have more around if things go south.

If I put someone into a predicament I'm too small to get him out of in .6 seconds, how LOVING is it of me to go "no no, I don't want a spotter."

This is fine and good until people play hard.

And you know what? People play hard.

If you actually want to deal with how humans behave and MITIGATE risk, that's the reason for these parties. If you are actively campaigning to scare people off from mitigated risk scenarios, you are a fucking menace.

If it's not your cup of tea, that's fine. But spreading mythology which sounds like it was written by the Meese commission is detrimental and we're going to debunk your bullshit.

And for someone to ignore that fact and scare people away from that safety net is irresponsible. Where do more people get raped, attacked, and abused - in private in hotel rooms or at major SM dungeons? Tick tock.

Unless you are looking for someone to stuff into a barrel yourself, these parties might be a "not for me" but hardy something to dissuade people from.

Click to expand...

There has been some chatter in my local groups on Fetlife recently about how to protect female submissives from male predators in the scene. The predators in question approach women and, essentially, clumsily and creepily hit on them. In response, a number of m-Doms have taken it upon themselves to protect the women and even offer classes in how to protect yourself from creepy guys.

I find the whole thing sexist and offensive. Of course, anyone who doesn't know how to take no for an answer deserves to be ostracized. But adult women who attend play parties should be able to say "no thanks" and also "get lost" if necessary. The assumption that female submissives are inherently in need of male protection is offensive to me.

intothewoods said:

There has been some chatter in my local groups on Fetlife recently about how to protect female submissives from male predators in the scene. The predators in question approach women and, essentially, clumsily and creepily hit on them. In response, a number of m-Doms have taken it upon themselves to protect the women and even offer classes in how to protect yourself from creepy guys.

I find the whole thing sexist and offensive. Of course, anyone who doesn't know how to take no for an answer deserves to be ostracized. But adult women who attend play parties should be able to say "no thanks" and also "get lost" if necessary. The assumption that female submissives are inherently in need of male protection is offensive to me.

Click to expand...

I am in solid agreement.

And what about the vanilla world? No women are abused there? Please. So, does every single woman on the planet require a male chaperon to protect her from the big, bad world?

intothewoods said:

The assumption that female submissives are inherently in need of male protection is offensive to me.

Click to expand...

You don't see any warnings to the same degree on 'dating' in the vanilla world.

Since when did submissive automatically equal stupid?

It's mind boggling. And yeah, it's offensive.

intothewoods said:

The assumption that female submissives are inherently in need of male protection is offensive to me.

Click to expand...

Though I think osg, and some others, might think otherwise. I thought I needed male protection when I was young, and was never without it. Not everyone is as assertive as they "need" to be.

Keroin said:

I am in solid agreement.

And what about the vanilla world? No women are abused there? Please. So, does every single woman on the planet require a male chaperon to protect her from the big, bad world?

Click to expand...

If he wears a cowboy hat, boots, a 3 day old beard and a gun on his hip, then yes, maybe.

*fans myself as I swoon*

eastern sun said:

Though I think osg, and some others, might think otherwise. I thought I needed male protection when I was young, and was never without it. Not everyone is as assertive as they "need" to be.

Click to expand...

And that's fine but assuming female + submissive = needs male protection is offensive.

I think it behooves anyone of character, male or female, to step up and help out when they see someone who needs assistance or protection but making that kind of blanket assumption?

There are naive and delusional men who really shouldn't be allowed out unescorted, because they're such easy marks. Where's the support group of white knights galloping up to save them?

For god's people. What fucking century is this?

Poorly adjusted or socially vulnerable individuals (of whatever gender or sexual orientation) may need special help, as individuals. Everyone else should be taught & expected to behave like fully functioning adults.

Unless, of course, the "support group" is really just part of the fetishization of the wide-eyed, vulnerable, helpless female submissive fantasy type. Which is what I suspect of the Fetlife thing ITW's describing.

JMohegan said:

Unless, of course, the "support group" is really just part of the fetishization of the wide-eyed, vulnerable, helpless female submissive fantasy type. Which is what I suspect of the Fetlife thing ITW's describing.

Click to expand...

Bingo.

Getting back to tears...

I think I distrust tears, to some extent.

In my life, I have seen my father cry about six times. When his dad died, when his mom died, when my mom was sick and eventually died, and when I moved far from home for the first time. And yet, I don't ever doubt the depth of his feelings, his love for me and my sister, his vulnerability.

In contrast, my ex made a big show of "being man enough to cry". He was always putting on a waterworks display. But he was a bad husband, a bad father, a bad friend. His tears were crocodile tears, he was a predator through and through.

I'm not implying that tears are wrong or bad just that, when it comes to displays of emotions, what you see is not always what you get.

JMohegan said:

Unless, of course, the "support group" is really just part of the fetishization of the wide-eyed, vulnerable, helpless female submissive fantasy type. Which is what I suspect of the Fetlife thing ITW's describing.

Click to expand...

Me, too. And the girls go for it as much as the guys.

Which I think is apropos the original intent of the thread. Shows of weakness and the potential aggression such shows incite.

JMohegan said:

There are naive and delusional men who really shouldn't be allowed out unescorted, because they're such easy marks. Where's the support group of white knights galloping up to save them?

For god's people. What fucking century is this?

Poorly adjusted or socially vulnerable individuals (of whatever gender or sexual orientation) may need special help, as individuals. Everyone else should be taught & expected to behave like fully functioning adults.

Unless, of course, the "support group" is really just part of the fetishization of the wide-eyed, vulnerable, helpless female submissive fantasy type. Which is what I suspect of the Fetlife thing ITW's describing.

Click to expand...

Agree. Not only this, but do people realize you can actually be SUED if you try to report on behalf of someone else?

Which a lot of white knights might actually go and do?

If a white knight sees a woman being "sexually attacked" and it's a misinterpretation of consensual activity - he can honest to God be taken to court, do not pass go, lose everything you have ever owned.

Women have to be allowed to make their own decisions, even profoundly stupid ones. It's part of the definition of freedom and human rights as we understand it in the US at any rate.

Instead of having "how to protect yourself from creeps" classes, in NYC we've been having "how not to be a creep" classes. Most of it is on etiquette that's specific to the BDSM scene, since a lot of it is stuff that has to be learned. It's actually been pretty well received, and apparently helpful to some people. Just another (hopefully less sexist) approach to the "oh god creepy doms" "problem".

eastern sun said:

Me, too. And the girls go for it as much as the guys.

Which I think is apropos the original intent of the thread. Shows of weakness and the potential aggression such shows incite.

Click to expand...

Good point ES.

One of things I used to teach women in self defense classes was how to not present themselves as victims. Predators sniff out weakness, they read body language. Something as simple as making eye contact can telegraph strength to a potential attacker.

eastern sun said:

Though I think osg, and some others, might think otherwise. I thought I needed male protection when I was young, and was never without it. Not everyone is as assertive as they "need" to be.

Click to expand...

Assertiveness is simply a good survival skill, but personalities are what they are. I just don't subscribe to the world view that women are supposed to be fragile, delicate creatures, anymore than I subscribe to the notion that all women are natural leaders. Women are free to seek out male protection if they want. I just reject the idea that women are inherently in need of protection, and a class that institutionalizes this idea is even more offensive.

JMohegan said:

<snip>

Unless, of course, the "support group" is really just part of the fetishization of the wide-eyed, vulnerable, helpless female submissive fantasy type. Which is what I suspect of the Fetlife thing ITW's describing.

Click to expand...

The argument was made by several people that the people offering this class were just trying to score.

00Syd said:

Instead of having "how to protect yourself from creeps" classes, in NYC we've been having "how not to be a creep" classes. Most of it is on etiquette that's specific to the BDSM scene, since a lot of it is stuff that has to be learned. It's actually been pretty well received, and apparently helpful to some people. Just another (hopefully less sexist) approach to the "oh god creepy doms" "problem".

Click to expand...

I like that. Which group runs it?

intothewoods said:

I like that. Which group runs it?

Click to expand...

No group in particular. Various individuals have developed similar "creep" classes on their own, and have presented them for different organizations.

eastern sun said:

Me, too. And the girls go for it as much as the guys.

Which I think is apropos the original intent of the thread. Shows of weakness and the potential aggression such shows incite.

Click to expand...

From my perspective, I'd say it depends.

Feigned weakness, or vulnerability that seems purposefully cultivated or contrived, are big turnoffs for me. Which is why the fetishization of the wide-eyed helpless femsub fantasy type leaves me flat.

On the other hand, hints of genuine weakness or real vulnerability, in an otherwise strong and self-sufficient female of interest, generate exactly the response you describe.... if I've been the cause of the wavering. Sooo fucking delicious, I can taste it on my tongue. You may not be surprised to hear it's a taste reminiscent of blood.

CutieMouse said:

[hijack]

This is a whole thread topic in and of itself... actually we haven't had a good meaty discussion of this sort of thing (without derailing another thread) in a while.

I won't post my views of the opinions expressed here, and am off to work out before going into the shop, but I for one would be willing to discuss "casual BDSM/predators/True Love/etc" in a separate thread. And by separate thread I do not mean a posting of links of BL's writings. I mean a discussion.

(Posted publicly as BL apparently has PMs turned off.)

[/hijack]

Click to expand...

~smile~

I'm in.

CutieMouse said:

[snip]
As for weakenssessess... as convoluted as it may sound, sometimes I believe my greatest strengths are my greatest weaknesses, and my greatest weaknesses are my biggest strengths.

Click to expand...

Lizzie_Borden said:

That they can be. It's all in how you manage them.

Click to expand...

I struggle with this all the time! I'm super sensitive, hyper-emotional and it can be a huge detriment in my relationships and to my self-esteem. I work on it all the time, trying to control it better, and absolutely consider it my biggest weakness.

However, the flipside of my ultra-sensitive emotions is that I find great joy, excitement, and fun in many things most people don't seem to. I'm very reactionary in bed, which has it's definite perks. I'm animated, passionate, and engaging, and I think it's all the other side of the same coin that leaves my feelings constantly trampled unintentionally by others.

I've often been told by others that these are some of my best personality traits and I agree. So, if I fight to hard to control those weaknesses, am I going to lost some of that positive spark, too? No way to know, but I wonder about it.

Weaknesses can be a good thing, as other posters have noted.

Keroin said:

Your current situation is terrible, BTW, and I think you're handling yourself admirably.

Click to expand...

Thanks, but I do have my off moments. I try to make it difficult to see what's behind this smile. A sense of humor helps quite a bit in times of stress or when your life is upside down.

You take life as it comes. You digest what you can and when you can. It's kind of like paying bills. If you're short of funds, you pay what you can now and then you wait for more funds to come in. Worrying about the bills you can't pay is going to cause an ulcer.

I can't afford the Cobra insurance. They want something like $380 a month to keep my insurance current. I simply can't afford it. I've never really understood that Cobra thing. I've lost my job but they expect me to keep my insurance current? There should be a program that helps pay your insurance like it helps with your unemployment. But because the premium is so high, until I get another job, I won't have insurance. All I can do is hope it won't be very long and put it out of my mind.

I can't worry about things I can't fix. Worry is my weakness. I got it from my mother. Like she did, I sometimes worry about shit that happens in my life. But also like she did, I try to joke about it, too. I've started a running joke with my sister. Things come up that need to get done, but because I don't have a job, I'm not able to get them done.

My sister might ask me what I'm going to do about something and I'll tell her I can't do anything about it just yet. But, I've got a list of things I'm going to take care of when I get a job, and I've added it to my list.

Now, when she starts to ask me what I'm going to do about something, she will sometimes stop herself in mid sentence and say..."I know. it's on your list." In times of stress, you look for the humor. It's always there.