Article: The Healthy Female Submissive

Recidiva said:

I think there's room for both.

It can be an extremely lifesaving and necessary measure.

It can also be a hugely oppressive bummer to some.

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True that. I just think western middle class women who get options aren't quite as put upon as they seem to think by feminism. It's not perfect, but honestly, I think it's like bored and well fed animals trashing the cage that minimally protects them.

Fix it, whine about it, but urging other women to abandon ship and find more comfort in a sexist and patriarchal world, as some of these essayists do, blaming other women for your problem - is being the lead lemming.

Netzach said:

True that. I just think western middle class women who get options aren't quite as put upon as they seem to think by feminism.

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No, but they're allowed to complain.

Hell, if I get a paper cut or a hangnail I complain.

Doesn't mean I want to abolish paper or my fingernails.

Recidiva said:

No, but they're allowed to complain.

Hell, if I get a paper cut or a hangnail I complain.

Doesn't mean I want to abolish paper or my fingernails.

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Sure. Context is everything though. When you're putting your plaint in the echo chamber of M/f M/s slavery, you aren't exactly doing anyone a favor but yourself - it's not like the feminists you're dealing with are actually going to consider your experience - what exactly is the desired result?

Recidiva said:

I think there's room for both.

It can be an extremely lifesaving and necessary measure.

It can also be a hugely oppressive bummer to some.

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Can we define what we mean by "it" here, please?

If "it" = the core of feminism, then I'd say "it" = self-sufficiency obtained from equal access to education and economic, political, and social opportunities of all kinds.

Given that definition, I'd say that the idea of "it" being an oppressive bummer, or even just optional, is irresponsible for any adult.

Netzach said:

Sure. Context is everything though. When you're putting your plaint in the echo chamber of M/f M/s slavery, you aren't exactly doing anyone a favor but yourself - it's not like the feminists you're dealing with are actually going to consider your experience - what exactly is the desired result?

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I'm not sure there's a desired result to complaint other than wanting something to end, and wanting to be heard. It's an unpleasant process, but it's one of the only ways that change takes place. If enough people have the same complaint and they can coordinate their complaints enough to effect change on a group. Or if an individual can sway others with their words.

I don't actually think there's a conflict between consensual slavery and feminism. There's certainly a distaste to some though because it's allowing a choice that used to be compulsory and I'm sure they'd rather nobody ever wanted to do it again voluntarily. But from my point of view as long as someone goes into it consensually, I'm fine with it.

I don't identify myself as a feminist though. I would like to think that someone who did identify themselves as feminists could at least see the logic of it.

Recidiva said:

I'm not sure there's a desired result to complaint other than wanting something to end, and wanting to be heard. It's an unpleasant process, but it's one of the only ways that change takes place. If enough people have the same complaint and they can coordinate their complaints enough to effect change on a group. Or if an individual can sway others with their words.

I don't actually think there's a conflict between consensual slavery and feminism. There's certainly a distaste to some though because it's allowing a choice that used to be compulsory and I'm sure they'd rather nobody ever wanted to do it again voluntarily. But from my point of view as long as someone goes into it consensually, I'm fine with it.

I don't identify myself as a feminist though. I would like to think that someone who did identify themselves as feminists could at least see the logic of it.

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I don't think a feminist sexuality exists at all.

Not vanilla, not lesbian, not asexual, not FemDom, not femsub, not at all.

You can't have a feminist sexuality when feminism is a token opposition to cultural forces, not something ingrained in babies with language and an assumed norm. You can't tell me something is an assumed norm in maybe 50 years, either, in the timeline of human development. That's absurd.

I don't think orientations are political. I think they're imprinted and affected by politics, but I don't really think that orientation has anything to do with anything more than a thumbprint.

I think what you do outside of bed is where it matters. I definitely don't think that M/f D/s disqualifies someone from being feminist or being aligned in some fashion with it. But I don't think it's something that needs to be recast as perfectly fine good and healthy for women in order for someone to be in the club. I don't think F/m D/s M/s is any "better for women." I don't think women have any options other than navigating a system that's hostile to their sexuality and coming up with some way to get pleasure out of it.


Maybe that's the issue for me, I don't see a world in which these things are going to reconcile happily even if we want women to have choices, and choices are good.

FWIW I consider myself feminist with a small f. I think women should have choices, period, and maybe even support in those choices, just as men have.

I don't susbscribe to Ms. Magazine academic second wave Feminism, but I am also actively non-hostile to it and realize that I wouldn't have gotten much out of life without it. Even if they do insist that lesbian frottage is ok and nothing else is. I am also very much against "difference feminism" that extols the virtue of an inherently female Goddess past and woo woo, because I have never felt part of those values or remotely that "different" in any way. I rarely even think of myself as "a girl" until reminded in some fashion by the outer world. Though makeup is sweet.

Netzach said:

Please move somewhere your demeanor is a norm, not a choice for a while. Talk to the other happy subbies.

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Thanks for clarification, Netzach, because (see above) it certainly seemed like you were talking to me.

I'm cool with feminism. It's not how I choose to define myself - that is, as a feminist - but then I largely choose not to define myself, period.

I also wanted to mention that the male co-worker who made the comment about women being cocksucking whores is now one of my closest friends. It would have been easy to write him off as an asshole but I chose to prove him wrong instead. He'd turn a hundred shades of red if you reminded him of that discussion today. With men, I think women need to understand that earning their respect is the best way to bring about change. Well, that's what works for me, anyway.

JMohegan said:

Can we define what we mean by "it" here, please?

If "it" = the core of feminism, then I'd say "it" = self-sufficiency obtained from equal access to education and economic, political, and social opportunities of all kinds.

Given that definition, I'd say that the idea of "it" being an oppressive bummer, or even just optional, is irresponsible for any adult.

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"IT" in this case is actions taken by individuals who identify themselves as feminists.

Feminism is now as splintered as any church. There's no Pope to go to to straighten this stuff out.

From my point of view I've seen lots of good historically done by feminism. Just as I can say there's been lots of good done by churches.

However, in feminism history there have been things said and done that are ugly and destructive and hateful.

From my point of view - "IT" has come into my view when feminists (individuals, again, I don't really hold anyone responsible as the feminist Pope) degrade traditional values or traditional roles as betrayals of women. When motherhood or any service to family somehow is determined to be brainwashing. When a feminist accuses me of being complacent or lacking will simply because although I have a job, I lack ambition. When I already consider myself separate to and equal to men and I feel I have nothing to prove, by that attitude I am somehow betraying them.

I also see men maligned often in private and I don't tolerate that. As if because I'm a woman, I should hate men. I don't, I think they're awesome.

It can be in its worst form, bigotry and hatred and self interest under cover of hijacked idealism.

In its best form, I'm really damned grateful that I can vote, I tell ya.

Netzach said:

"Men and Childless women"

talk about existing in a liminality, no offense.

Another reason I always felt embraced by feminism, which has reinvented or renewed reproduction as holy rite.

If you think that this sphere is maligned, try staying not a part of it throughout your life.

Men will dismiss your observations as childish, women will dismiss your robservations as not entirely trustworthy nor aligned with the cause.

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Absolutely. And I stayed there for nearly half my adult life. Very consciously not crossing over the threshold. Why? Because I thought I'd lose power when I did.

I can imagine you'd feel marginalized in both worlds. And you shouldn't be.

Netzach said:

I don't think a feminist sexuality exists at all. You can't have a feminist sexuality when feminism is a token opposition to cultural forces, not something ingrained in babies with language and an assumed norm. You can't tell me something is an assumed norm in maybe 50 years, either, in the timeline of human development. That's absurd.

I don't think orientations are political. I think what you do outside of bed is where it matters. I definitely don't think that M/f D/s disqualifies someone from being feminist or being aligned in some fashion with it. But I don't think it's something that needs to be recast as perfectly fine good and healthy for women in order for someone to be in the club. I don't think F/m D/s M/s is any "better for women." I don't think women have any options other than navigating a system that's hostile to their sexuality and coming up with some way to get pleasure out of it.


Maybe that's the issue for me, I don't see a world in which these things are going to reconcile happily even if we want women to have choices, and choices are good.

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I guess I just don't have issues here. Any guy that has attempted to oppress me has usually drawn back a bloody stump, as have women who equally attempted to oppress me.

I don't care what other folks do, as long as they don't try to make me do it, or stop me from going my way. And I still think you have to defend yourself and your turf always. I don't take that personally, and I don't really find the fight coming from men more than women.

I do think that being feminist can make the threat from men seem somehow worse, and blind to the threat from other women. And that's unfortunate.

The world is a harsh place and that harshness can come from any direction at any time. I find that many "isms" can overrate one threat and underrate another.

I'm universally wary.

Keroin said:

Thanks for clarification, Netzach, because (see above) it certainly seemed like you were talking to me.

I'm cool with feminism. It's not how I choose to define myself - that is, as a feminist - but then I largely choose not to define myself, period.

I also wanted to mention that the male co-worker who made the comment about women being cocksucking whores is now one of my closest friends. It would have been easy to write him off as an asshole but I chose to prove him wrong instead. He'd turn a hundred shades of red if you reminded him of that discussion today. With men, I think women need to understand that earning their respect is the best way to bring about change. Well, that's what works for me, anyway.

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That's cool and I have friends like that.

I also expect my respect to be earned, too, though.

Recidiva said:

I guess I just don't have issues here. Any guy that has attempted to oppress me has usually drawn back a bloody stump, as have women who equally attempted to oppress me.

I don't care what other folks do, as long as they don't try to make me do it, or stop me from going my way. And I still think you have to defend yourself and your turf always. I don't take that personally, and I don't really find the fight coming from men more than women.

I do think that being feminist can make the threat from men seem somehow worse, and blind to the threat from other women. And that's unfortunate.

The world is a harsh place and that harshness can come from any direction at any time. I find that many "isms" can overrate one threat and underrate another.

I'm universally wary.

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I felt this way for a long time, I really did. And I was very hostile to the kind of victorian disapproving mom tone I found in mainstream Feminism big F.

But then I began to think more carefully about why the women who have fucked me over in various ways throughout my life did what they did.

It's not always "The Man fucked 'em in the head" but it's often, quite often, a permutation on that.

Not that it absolves everyone of free will or anything, but it's definitely a current I've noticed.

I'm hardly a joiner really. You're not going to find me engaging anything short of a get your ass out of my reproductive rights kind of thing. And I agree with you on the paternity issue, having never gotten a dime out of Daddy myself I have a lot of trouble relating to the current backlash on sperm depositors and the endorsement of intentional "oops" ing.

Netzach said:

I felt this way for a long time, I really did. And I was very hostile to the kind of victorian disapproving mom tone I found in mainstream Feminism big F.

But then I began to think more carefully about why the women who have fucked me over in various ways throughout my life did what they did.

It's not always "The Man fucked 'em in the head" but it's often, quite often, a permutation on that.

Not that it absolves everyone of free will or anything, but it's definitely a current I've noticed.

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Okay. I'm not going to attempt to judge that current. It's entirely possible your universe and mine are different.

I've seen plenty of women screw men over for no good reason other than the usual evil suspects, greed, narcissism, cruelty and such. I guess I don't care who they caught it from, but they're carriers and they pass it along just as well as men.

Matriarchal societies are some of the places where feminism is required. China and Albania come to mind. Where women rule the house and men rule everything else, but inside the house, it still sucks bad if you're a woman without status. And the head of that status ladder? A woman. Slavery and abuse is still what matters, not the gender of who is holding the whip. And I've seen several well-manicured hands holding whips.

Recidiva said:

"IT" in this case is actions taken by individuals who identify themselves as feminists.

Feminism is now as splintered as any church. There's no Pope to go to to straighten this stuff out.

From my point of view I've seen lots of good historically done by feminism. Just as I can say there's been lots of good done by churches.

However, in feminism history there have been things said and done that are ugly and destructive and hateful.

From my point of view - "IT" has come into my view when feminists (individuals, again, I don't really hold anyone responsible as the feminist Pope) degrade traditional values or traditional roles as betrayals of women. When motherhood or any service to family somehow is determined to be brainwashing. When a feminist accuses me of being complacent or lacking will simply because although I have a job, I lack ambition. When I already consider myself separate to and equal to men and I feel I have nothing to prove, by that attitude I am somehow betraying them.

I also see men maligned often in private and I don't tolerate that. As if because I'm a woman, I should hate men. I don't, I think they're awesome.

It can be in its worst form, bigotry and hatred and self interest under cover of hijacked idealism.

In its best form, I'm really damned grateful that I can vote, I tell ya.

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First off - thanks for writing this all out. I can now appreciate your "bummer" remark!

I discount the man-haters as fundamentally anti-social, absurdly hypocritical psychopaths. Because really, from my perspective, they're just nuts.

The devaluing of motherhood and traditional female contributions or roles is something I find very disturbing. Not just because it insults people for whom I care very deeply, but because I genuinely believe that discounting and discouraging these skills & contributions is bad for our society as a whole. I also find this devaluation ironic, because it seems to me to be the ultimate absorption of patriarchical values and goals.

Recidiva said:

China and Albania come to mind. Where women rule the house and men rule everything else, but inside the house, it still sucks bad if you're a woman without status.

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I think we simply aren't going to agree as to why this is. People are evil, women are evil too. For every difference feminist, you can argue "Margaret Thatcher."

I'd say a woman completely under the heel of her husband "outside the home" where it matters more generally - who beats the shit out of her young daughter in law is passing on the good stuff she's obviously getting.

JMohegan said:

First off - thanks for writing this all out. I can now appreciate your "bummer" remark!

I discount the man-haters as fundamentally anti-social, absurdly hypocritical psychopaths. Because really, from my perspective, they're just nuts.

The devaluing of motherhood and traditional female contributions or roles is something I find very disturbing. Not just because it insults people for whom I care very deeply, but because I genuinely believe that discounting and discouraging these skills & contributions is bad for our society as a whole. I also find this devaluation ironic, because it seems to me to be the ultimate absorption of patriarchical values and goals.

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This man-hating feminist is kind of like the woman-who-aborts-as-her-birth-control-method.

Has anyone ever met these people? Or are they kind of like the cyclops?

Who are we talking about. Ok, I can name Valerie Solanas.

She was clinically nuts, yep. Quite obviously so.

I believe her "society for cutting up men" consisted of her.

No matter how you slice it, you are looking at a fringe of a fringe. But the idea of "hating men" is so outside the pale for a woman that apparently these "man hating feminists" are the most powerful women the movement ever vomited forth.

JMohegan said:

First off - thanks for writing this all out. I can now appreciate your "bummer" remark!

I discount the man-haters as fundamentally anti-social, absurdly hypocritical psychopaths. Because really, from my perspective, they're just nuts.

The devaluing of motherhood and traditional female contributions or roles is something I find very disturbing. Not just because it insults people for whom I care very deeply, but because I genuinely believe that discounting and discouraging these skills & contributions is bad for our society as a whole. I also find this devaluation ironic, because it seems to me to be the ultimate absorption of patriarchical values and goals.

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Glad for the opportunity to clarify. Again, as I said many times, I don't really hold the institution of feminism responsible. But there are those who take the ugliest possibilities to the extreme, and unfortunately, those who would otherwise be sane and argue with them, are afraid to, because it would look like a betrayal. A lot of ugliness takes place under cover of "this is a safe space, nobody will argue with you here." That much safety and acceptance can actually breed a lot of nasty when nobody will say boo.

Keep in mind I've explored this sorta thing to the ultimate extreme, including women's retreats where men aren't allowed on the grounds for two weeks while women create in their own energy. I've been to a lot of that, wiccan, lesbian vibe. Some amazing role models that I've encountered that I've tried to emulate. And some songs, prayers, proposed spells, wishes or creative writing that contain such bile and hatred they're etched in my brain and I'll never be able to get them out.

What I consider to be the biggest loss is all that information about being a good mother...devalued and discounted and all that traditional information...wiped out in a few generations. People not listening and so much lost. That actually makes me really sad and rather angry.

I share your sense of irony. I really don't think I have to beat 'em or join 'em. But it's sad how many feminists think they have to become a man to beat a man. I don't want to be a man. I'd rather just join 'em for drinks and leave it at that.

Netzach said:

I think we simply aren't going to agree as to why this is. People are evil, women are evil too. For every difference feminist, you can argue "Margaret Thatcher."

I'd say a woman completely under the heel of her husband "outside the home" where it matters more generally - who beats the shit out of her young daughter in law is passing on the good stuff she's obviously getting.

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But then we start to get into the nature vs nurture and infinite regression. That's the focus of my first post.

Are people taught to hate by parents or genes or the social influence or what?

Sometimes this just doesn't matter any more. How many serial killers who are male, got fucked over by their mothers, who were female? Does that mean they didn't kill someone? They're still ultimately the point in the universe responsible for the resulting consequences of their actions. They have to be held responsible. We can't forgive and understand and justify everything out of existence. Maybe we can feel deep sorrow for the inextricable horror of what's done, but you can't just let someone go because they drew the ultimate short straw and got the worst of nature and nurture and they're now toxic and destructive to everything and anyone they come into contact with. Buck's gotta stop somewhere.

Evil is passed on through any gender. And in the end I hold the person who chose to learn to be evil responsible. Whether they came to it by choice and embrace or torture and duress.

Yes, there are cases where people don't have the will, skill or whatever it takes to make a personal choice, and that is horrible and tragic and all that. Those extremes are when any "ism" that offers more choices across broader spectrums to men or women gets my approval.

YES. I am against forced clitorectomy. Check here. That's easy.

It gets harder. I don't always check here. Not every issue is that clear.

Netzach said:

This man-hating feminist is kind of like the woman-who-aborts-as-her-birth-control-method.

Has anyone ever met these people? Or are they kind of like the cyclops?

Who are we talking about. Ok, I can name Valerie Solanas.

She was clinically nuts, yep. Quite obviously so.

I believe her "society for cutting up men" consisted of her.

No matter how you slice it, you are looking at a fringe of a fringe. But the idea of "hating men" is so outside the pale for a woman that apparently these "man hating feminists" are the most powerful women the movement ever vomited forth.

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I think they're the most needing help and the most misguided.

I wouldn't recommend offering that help though. No, I wouldn't.

I agree with you that it's a fringe of a fringe. However, in my experience, feminism is a really large tent and they're evangelical to the point that they might not necessarily kick out the crazy if they pay dues and talk a good game.

And sometimes the biggest celebrities of the cause are the most outrageous and full of shit. But man, they bring the press to the events.

Recidiva said:

But then we start to get into the nature vs nurture and infinite regression. That's the focus of my first post.

Are people taught to hate by parents or genes or the social influence or what?

Sometimes this just doesn't matter any more. How many serial killers who are male, got fucked over by their mothers, who were female? Does that mean they didn't kill someone? They're still ultimately the point in the universe responsible for the resulting consequences of their actions. They have to be held responsible. We can't forgive and understand and justify everything out of existence. Maybe we can feel deep sorrow for the inextricable horror of what's done, but you can't just let someone go because they drew the ultimate short straw and got the worst of nature and nurture and they're now toxic and destructive to everything and anyone they come into contact with. Buck's gotta stop somewhere.

Evil is passed on through any gender. And in the end I hold the person who chose to learn to be evil responsible. Whether they came to it by choice and embrace or torture and duress.

Yes, there are cases where people don't have the will, skill or whatever it takes to make a personal choice, and that is horrible and tragic and all that. Those extremes are when any "ism" that offers more choices across broader spectrums to men or women gets my approval.

YES. I am against forced clitorectomy. Check here. That's easy.

It gets harder. I don't always check here. Not every issue is that clear.

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I'm not proposing free passes for anyone whatsoever. Understanding the cause of something doesn't necessarily mitigate.

For example, I'm very opposed to the "I drowned my 8 babies, but I'm a casualty of abuse so I am deemed nuts but if I were the father I'd totally fry."

But I am saying that the back-analysis may actually help in the prevention or curtailing maybe in the future. Optimistic in the extreme, I suppose.

Recidiva said:

I think they're the most needing help and the most misguided.

I wouldn't recommend offering that help though. No, I wouldn't.

I agree with you that it's a fringe of a fringe. However, in my experience, feminism is a really large tent and they're evangelical to the point that they might not necessarily kick out the crazy if they pay dues and talk a good game.

And sometimes the biggest celebrities of the cause are the most outrageous and full of shit. But man, they bring the press to the events.

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Welcome to any subculture. wanna go to a munch?

Netzach said:

This man-hating feminist is kind of like the woman-who-aborts-as-her-birth-control-method.

Has anyone ever met these people? Or are they kind of like the cyclops?

Who are we talking about. Ok, I can name Valerie Solanas.

She was clinically nuts, yep. Quite obviously so.

I believe her "society for cutting up men" consisted of her.

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Yes, of course I've met these people. I went to college & grad school with some of these people. Didn't you?

Here's a synopsis of their message (without the profanity and shrieking):

"You (person with a cock) are an active participant in a system that deliberately oppresses women, whether you admit it or not. Your cock gives you privilege, and that privilege blinds you and renders you incapable of ethical behavior or reasonable thought."

No room for conversation or question or constructive debate. No effort to distinguish between various types of men. Just a blanket dismissal of cock as evil, the end.

So sorry. I don't buy it. I'm willing to listen to you, but only if you listen right back. I'm willing to acknowledge that I harbor ill-founded prejudices, but only if you'll do the same.

And you can swear and shriek all you want to, but if your message is ultimately that I can't possibly change, then frankly I really don't see the point.

Netzach said:

I'm not proposing free passes for anyone whatsoever. Understanding the cause of something doesn't necessarily mitigate.

For example, I'm very opposed to the "I drowned my 8 babies, but I'm a casualty of abuse so I am deemed nuts but if I were the father I'd totally fry."

But I am saying that the back-analysis may actually help in the prevention or curtailing maybe in the future. Optimistic in the extreme, I suppose.

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I agree with you that it's best to determine the back track of things and attempt to prevent.

There are just SO many ways to fuck people up. So few to avoid doing so.

Netzach said:

Welcome to any subculture. wanna go to a munch?

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With you? Hell yeah. What am I supporting this week? I'll make the signs.

JMohegan said:

Yes, of course I've met these people. I went to college & grad school with some of these people. Didn't you?

Here's a synopsis of their message (without the profanity and shrieking):

"You (person with a cock) are an active participant in a system that deliberately oppresses women, whether you admit it or not. Your cock gives you privilege, and that privilege blinds you and renders you incapable of ethical behavior or reasonable thought."

No room for conversation or question or constructive debate. No effort to distinguish between various types of men. Just a blanket dismissal of cock as evil, the end.

So sorry. I don't buy it. I'm willing to listen to you, but only if you listen right back. I'm willing to acknowledge that I harbor ill-founded prejudices, but only if you'll do the same.

And you can swear and shriek all you want to, but if your message is ultimately that I can't possibly change, then frankly I really don't see the point.

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Two obvious signs that men need a liberation movement:

"Tool Time" - Now, I love Tim Allen, but I couldn't bear at all his dumbassery while his wife was ultimately the greatest repository of patience and wisdom. Oh come on...really? If a show existed with a female Tim Allen...being constantly berated for being stupid by her husband...it'd have been off the air in a week and a half. But a dumb man? Money.

I went shopping one week and saw an ad for some sort of pre-cooked meal. The motto? "So Simple Even A Man Can Do It." What Ad agency in their right mind would have swapped out the word "Woman" in that?