Do your subs ever use innocent bystanders against you?

Marquis said:

I'm talking about some human shield type shit.

You tell her to shut her fucking mouth and raise the backhand, meanwhile captain-save-a-ho comes along and demands you show the lady "a little respect."

Not having any relationship with the captain, you look upon your property puzzled, thinking... "but we have a special relationship!"

She says nothing, and feigns ignorance to the fact that you beat that ass on the regular.

Now the captain feels vindicated in his right to intervene, and is spouting the merits of chivalry while eyeballing your bitches moneybits.

What do you do here?

Take out the captain?

How many innocent bystanders must suffer?

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This actually happens?

Having been "Captain Hero" a couple of times in the past, I find it interesting to look at the situation from the flip side. I worked as a bouncer for 6 years and halted the hand of many man in mid-swing (I never saw a woman doing the swinging in what was obviously a couple). The majority were just abusive trailer park assholes, but there were a couple that, at the time, I came to realize were in PYL/pyl relationships. The dead give away was the a series of reactions by the woman; first, dis-belief that I was interfering and then second, a closing of ranks with her PYL to basically tell me to fuck off.
When I found situations like that, I just asked them to keep it toned down in the bar.

Now, knowing more about the lifestyle, even though I don't participate, I'd have to say that the blame goes solely to the pyl in the OP's situation. I've known a few "bad" slaves who incite this kind of situation just to get extra punishment later. IMO, it's the PYL's job to defuse the public situation and then use mental games to start the punishment before getting to a private area where the physical punishment can be performed.

Just the opinions of an observer

CromCruithne said:

I'd have to say that the blame goes solely to the pyl in the OP's situation.

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And see, that's what I don't get. I can't believe that it actually happens. Who would do that to someone, unless they were genuinely unhappy in the relationship?

Etoile said:

And see, that's what I don't get. I can't believe that it actually happens. Who would do that to someone, unless they were genuinely unhappy in the relationship?

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This is a good question, and brings it back to what I can do to prevent this in the future, which is a perspective that I can appreciate. I'm a firm believer in laying blame only in so much as it guides you on what to do as an individual, since you can't really control anyone else's behavior by wishing.

I feel like I'm at a point where I need to assume more responsibility for my girls' well being. I've kind of used the excuses of:

"I'm not two people"

"I'm only 25"

"I have problems/issues of my own"

to death.

The truth is, none of that affects them. If I want the kind of obedience I desire, I'm going to have to get over that shit and step up and I think I'm in the process of doing that.

YourCaptor said:

In that case how about,

"You want her, you can have her"

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This is a popular way to handle situational conflicts like this, but all it does is serve to erode the trust and confidence of the submissive in that she is your property. Pulling back boundaries is really never the answer, unless you're intentionally trying to lose the sub.

It's a mistake I've made in the past, I know what I'm talking about.

ownedsubgal said:

very good question Marquis, about a real life scenario that many of us have had to deal with at some point or other.

of course the best bet is to try to avoid having any vanilla witnesses in the first place. my Master has verbally and physically reprimanded me in public, the latter always in relative privacy (bathroom, empty aisle of grocery store, alley, etc.). fortunately for us no one has ever intervened and tried to play hero. tho people have noticed us, shaken heads, tsk tsked, but luckily we live in a metropolitan/self-absorbed enough area where people generally mind their own business (i.e. don't give a flookie). i imagine if some guy did try to assert himself with my Master and "protect" me, my place would be to just stand behind Daddy and keep quiet, and Daddy would more than likely tell the guy to flock off, using physical force only if absolutely necessary (or if the guy just caught him on a bad day).

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Generally speaking we handle things much in the way that you do, but my long term plan is to create habits that will allow us to hold true to our values and coexist with society at the same time.

So many awesome D/s couples of generations past were/are forced to live in such secrecy because of the societal disconnect. I believe that bridging that gap so that men like myself can live flourishing and full public lives while simultaneously being true to our relationship values is one of my main missions in life.

Netzach said:

This is why I always couch my shame producing antics in plausible deniability. Even if it's only thinly plausible "oh don't mind him, he's off his meds - come ON Dad..."

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A bit of deftly used humor is often a powerful diffusion mechanism, definitely.

Plus it hits on this secretive, cold-tempered style of abuse which is totally hot.

catalina_francisco said:

I'm not really seeing you being serious on this Marquis...you got more brains than to think this would fly and be seen as OK by either the public or most here, but makes for good discussion.

Catalina

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My language is meant to be entertaining at points, but the question/topic is dead serious Cat, you know that.

Marquis said:

This is a good question, and brings it back to what I can do to prevent this in the future, which is a perspective that I can appreciate. I'm a firm believer in laying blame only in so much as it guides you on what to do as an individual, since you can't really control anyone else's behavior by wishing.

I feel like I'm at a point where I need to assume more responsibility for my girls' well being. I've kind of used the excuses of:

"I'm not two people"

"I'm only 25"

"I have problems/issues of my own"

to death.

The truth is, none of that affects them. If I want the kind of obedience I desire, I'm going to have to get over that shit and step up and I think I'm in the process of doing that.

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I do see this as a serious discussion, for whatever that's worth.

You're absolutely right that you have to take more responsibility here. If your girls are doing that kind of thing with you, it's because of YOU. Nobody pulls that kind of stunt for a laugh.

As you've noted, your excuses are inappropriate. Yes, you're 25, but you wanted to be in this situation. Yes, you're only one person, but you wanted to have two submissives. Yes, you have problems of your own (everyone does) but if your problems come in front of treating your property well, you don't get to own them.

I'm not saying they are bad excuses...everybody goes through those thought processes. But the trick is knowing how much you can handle, and only taking what you can handle, because trying to live beyond your means isn't fair to anybody, and only makes everybody miserable. If you want two subs, act like you can handle two subs, and you shall have them. If you act like you can't handle both, you will lose at least one of them.

I think your response demonstrates maturity. Now go show that maturity to others.

YourCaptor said:

That is hot

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You really are an evil perv huh? lol

Marquis said:

My language is meant to be entertaining at points, but the question/topic is dead serious Cat, you know that.

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Hmmm, well then I think you need to do as I said in my first post and find means by which to get your message across to your pyl's in public which don't invite outside intervention meant with the best of intentions. Punishments are always possible later, and often the delay can add impact if punishment is something which moves beyond the slap on the wrist or 'don't be a bad girl again' type...anticipation can add a whole new dimension.

Having been an advocate for preventing violence against women and abuse in general for a long time, I am not cool with demonstrating it at whim in public and expecting others to know it is consensual. CromCruithne's example of what he assessed to be lifestyle type behaviour based on the reaction of the woman is not proof it was that and his reaction in telling them to keep it toned down could have actually been giving an abuser a pat on the back for being the asshole he was, and perceived permission to continue abusing. Abused women are often surprised when someone steps in to try and protect them, and will often close ranks for a variety of reasons which include -
~ not wanting to have another harmed on their behalf;
~ embarrassment they are being exposed as an abused woman in public;
~ belief they deserve it;
~ fear the interference will mean even worse abuse for them later;
~ fear their abuser will be arrested which can seem frightening if they feel they have nowhere else to go;
~ fear that if they don't rush to defend their abuser they will pay for it tenfold, perhaps as some I have known with permanent physical damage or death.

Call me boring, but I really am not into shoving our choices in the face of others, and especially then calling unfair when they react as most people would, even many in the lifestyle. People are not mind readers, and usually even when you go out you expect to be able to enjoy yourself without unnecessary drama (as your post demonstrates). For that to be a reality it relies on people being able to control themselves in a way which is socially acceptable on most people's levels, and keep their particular quirks which may be mistaken for something much more harmful and perhaps life threatening, for private. We live the way we do without any need for anyone else's approval or guidance on what they think it should be like, how it should be done, and that suits us fine...if we begin making it blatantly public, then we are basically inviting the opinions and judgment of others and have to take responsibility for that, as well as accept it is their right to do so in a public place where all coexist. If OTOH someone enjoys the attention it attracts, no matter how negative and disruptive it may be, more power to them. You'll get there.

Of course, there is another way of looking at your original example....you did say the whole thing started with you telling her to shut her fucking mouth....and then complain when she does so, just because someone else intervenes and you expect her to make the decision it is now OK to talk again after being told not to?! I know this escapes many a PYL's realms of thinking, but from a pyl position it can be a very confusing position to be put in which depending on the moment, your mood, and the eventual outcome of the situation, can be seen by you right or wrong of her to decide to put a word in.

Catalina

Marquis said:

Generally speaking we handle things much in the way that you do, but my long term plan is to create habits that will allow us to hold true to our values and coexist with society at the same time.

So many awesome D/s couples of generations past were/are forced to live in such secrecy because of the societal disconnect. I believe that bridging that gap so that men like myself can live flourishing and full public lives while simultaneously being true to our relationship values is one of my main missions in life.

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it absolutely can be done. like yourself, my Master and i don't do well with the whole phoney public facade thing. for the first year and a half, nearly two years of the relationship, we were forced to do so because of legal issues (divorce, child custody, etc.), and it seriously eroded the relationship. i felt so insecure about my place and he wasn't feeling that 100% unwavering control at all times. no way could we go back to living that way again.

now, we just are who we are, and while we're respectful of others and mindful of the appropriate place and time for certain things, there's never a question of who leads and who follows. but that respect level (on part of the slave/sub) must be there. the very idea of acting out in public, of dishonoring or disgracing you in any way should be unfathomable to her. for some submissives this comes naturally, for others it may require the Firm Hand and constant tangible reaffirmation of your control.

when i mentioned this topic to Daddy last night, and asked what he would do in the situation, his response was basically the same as YourCaptor's: "cut her loose" and "hey bro, if you want her, take her." and he would mean every word...but he is not as forgiving as some when it comes to issues of disrespect.

He also told me about a situation at a club one night when he was out with his former slave, and she had flocked up in some way. He said he kept a calm expression on his face as he held her arms with both hands and dug his fingers deeply into her flesh, leaving 10 little holes trickling blood. a club bouncer asked her if she was alright, and Daddy told her to nod and smile while he led her out of the club, still holding an arm firmly. and in past experiences he's expected the same of me...nod, smile, keep it moving. of course later on in privacy, she got the beating of a lifetime. so i suppose that is his way...don't create a public spectacle, but address the issue then and there.

I find it interesting that for some, the response is "cut her loose." This implies that SHE is the problem. But if this is taking place, isn't it the owner's fault for letting their property's psyche get to a point where she is insecure or even afraid of her owner? I'm no longer surprised this happens, but I do think it only happens in relationships that are already unsteady or unhealthy.

Etoile said:

I find it interesting that for some, the response is "cut her loose." This implies that SHE is the problem. But if this is taking place, isn't it the owner's fault for letting their property's psyche get to a point where she is insecure or even afraid of her owner? I'm no longer surprised this happens, but I do think it only happens in relationships that are already unsteady or unhealthy.

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I have to think on this before I can post a coherent response. I think there is something deep in your remarks Etolie. Something about the responsibility of a Dominant. But I don't seem to be able to put the words together yet.

I'll be back later...

Of course, there is another way of looking at your original example....you did say the whole thing started with you telling her to shut her fucking mouth....and then complain when she does so, just because someone else intervenes and you expect her to make the decision it is now OK to talk again after being told not to?!

wow...you know Catalina i didn't even think of this, but you do make a very good point. when my Master tells me to shut the flock up, i shut the flock up, and remain that way until he says otherwise. but in the OP, Marquis did mention "human shield" so i got the idea that she was doing a bit more than just keeping quiet.

I still don't understand why discipline needs to be enforced in public with 'shut your fucking mouth' and raising your hand. Are there not more subtle ways to make yourself clear?

intothewoods said:

I still don't understand why discipline needs to be enforced in public with 'shut your fucking mouth' and raising your hand. Are there not more subtle ways to make yourself clear?

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surely not if you want to make sure your sub knows who's the boss and who is in charge. Nothing puts a person back in their place like a little humiliation and promise of violence

intothewoods said:

I still don't understand why discipline needs to be enforced in public with 'shut your fucking mouth' and raising your hand. Are there not more subtle ways to make yourself clear?

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I personally agree. *shrugs* I don't want to listen to vanilla strangers bicker, why would I (or anyone else) want to listen to D/s strangers bicker? Their is such thing as TMI, and taking your differences (or whatever) into public is rude.

Quite frankly, this sounds like a matter of discipline. Granted, I'm not a dominant, but I am a mother. I do not discipline my kids in public - if it's completely necessary I take them in the bathroom or something. Why? Cause it makes people uncomfortable. The truth of the matter is that they know they're gonna get it when we get home, so quite often the evil eye is all that is necessary to do. K, on the other hand, is really bad about follow through so he has more problems with their behavior in public so quite often no amount of the evil eye or threats will work.

Like it or not, society sets boundaries on what is generally considered acceptable behavior. Raising your hand to another person is generally not considered acceptable and you can expect to draw intervention or at the very least looks of shock and disgust. I don't care how mainstream BDSM and D/s may be someday, don't expect your behavior to be acceptable to John Q. Public.

I remember some time back there was some kind of altercation at a theatre and you were unhappy with your sub because she didn't join you in the fight. I suggest you look at your own behavior as to why you get into these situations and then why you expect her to defend you.

As for being corrected and acknowledging the power dynamic in public..dude, you need to perfect the evil eye. I assure you it gets the message across and doesn't attract unwanted attention from passers-by.

EmpressFi said:

surely not if you want to make sure your sub knows who's the boss and who is in charge. Nothing puts a person back in their place like a little humiliation and promise of violence

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And you think folks behind you in line at the mini-mart should be part of this?

callinectes said:

And you think folks behind you in line at the mini-mart should be part of this?

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absolutely not.. I was being a smartassed submissive..

I can take my submission into the public without hiding it, well when he's here. But he doesnt need so threaten to backhand me and say, "shut the fuck up" in order for me to get back in line or to show his dominance. Any boorish bully can raise their hand and or voice and push someone around but then that's submission "if I know what's good for me." I much rather prefer the more secure dominant who merely needs to say, "Excuse me?" or just the look that says the same thing to let me know that I've stepped over the line.

EmpressFi said:

absolutely not.. I was being a smartassed submissive..

I can take my submission into the public without hiding it, well when he's here. But he doesnt need so threaten to backhand me and say, "shut the fuck up" in order for me to get back in line or to show his dominance. Any boorish bully can raise their hand and or voice and push someone around but then that's submission "if I know what's good for me." I much rather prefer the more secure dominant who merely needs to say, "Excuse me?" or just the look that says the same thing to let me know that I've stepped over the line.

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Ahh, my apologies. My sense of humor was temporarily out of order. LOL

I agree 100% with what you said. I have gotten the look with a calmly spoken "Be careful, missy" and I knew I was in the deep kim chee.

callinectes said:

Ahh, my apologies. My sense of humor was temporarily out of order. LOL

I agree 100% with what you said. I have gotten the look with a calmly spoken "Be careful, missy" and I knew I was in the deep kim chee.

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No apology needed.

Both Malin and Master are like that. Malin raises his left eyebrow and I know that my joking has gone too far. Master gives me .. this look.. and I know I've either said something or done something he didnt approve of. Perfect example was last summer we went to a club here in Philly and it was the first time I'd seen Malin in a scene with his then Domme. I turned around and he was getting undressed and he did something that was natural for the two of us, he stuck out his tongue. I giggled back and instantly heard a "ahem" and turned to Master and saw "the look". This was our first scene among other people so he leaned in and reminded me, "how you are here reflects on me." That's all he needed to say. The only raising of his hand to me was when I was flogged and paddled. But his point struck home and was all that was needed.

It's still back to one of those things that if that works for you, if that .. if that lights the fire inside you and makes you feel whole, great. But it doesnt work for me. I need to respect my Dom and someone who's appears as a bully, I dont respect him. I couldnt submit to someone who wants me to submit out of fear of being hurt or beaten. But then again, other people wouldnt respect my Master for not being that way. It's what floats your boat

all of this talk about the "evil eye"...that's just not everyone's style. my Master is definitely more of a toucher than a looker...his first instinct when i conduct myself inappropriately or mess up in whatever way is to grab, yank, hurt. that's also the sort of thing i respond best to. sure if it's some sort of minor issue he'll look to me and say quietly "check yourself," and i know to straighten up and fly right. but from the OP i assumed we weren't talking about super minor infractions that need only a warning, but something a bit more serious. as to why a submissive would act up in the first place, none of us are perfection personified. we all misstep at times.

i agree with those who've said that the general vanilla public does not need to see and hear all the gritty, unpleasant details of your personal relationship. but there are certainly ways for a Master to take care of things in a public setting with a very firm hand without attracting significant attention or drama.

once, a few months into our union, Daddy and i were at the mall getting something to eat in the food court. we were chatting and i quoted someone, and within the quote was a curse word. cursing is not something my Master permits from a slave, but back then i guess i didn't realize that it also applied to something like quoting someone. anywho, we were both just walking and holding our trays, and when the naughty word came out of my mouth he instantly (but very casually) punched me hard twice in the side. His arm was low so no one saw anything, and i coughed to cover up the gasping sound i couldn't help making. the food on my tray shifted a little, that was it. we sat down and enjoyed our lunch. no special look, words, or further action necessary.

ownedsubgal said:

all of this talk about the "evil eye"...that's just not everyone's style. my Master is definitely more of a toucher than a looker...his first instinct when i conduct myself inappropriately or mess up in whatever way is to grab, yank, hurt. that's also the sort of thing i respond best to. sure if it's some sort of minor issue he'll look to me and say quietly "check yourself," and i know to straighten up and fly right. but from the OP i assumed we weren't talking about super minor infractions that need only a warning, but something a bit more serious. as to why a submissive would act up in the first place, none of us are perfection personified. we all misstep at times.

i agree with those who've said that the general vanilla public does not need to see and hear all the gritty, unpleasant details of your personal relationship. but there are certainly ways for a Master to take care of things in a public setting with a very firm hand without attracting significant attention or drama.

once, a few months into our union, Daddy and i were at the mall getting something to eat in the food court. we were chatting and i quoted someone, and within the quote was a curse word. cursing is not something my Master permits from a slave, but back then i guess i didn't realize that it also applied to something like quoting someone. anywho, we were both just walking and holding our trays, and when the naughty word came out of my mouth he instantly (but very casually) punched me hard twice in the side. His arm was low so no one saw anything, and i coughed to cover up the gasping sound i couldn't help making. the food on my tray shifted a little, that was it. we sat down and enjoyed our lunch. no special look, words, or further action necessary.

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I'm not disagreeing. Heck, on the occasion when discipline is necessary (with the kids) I just press on a nerve in their knees. No one knows what I'm doing and I get my point across. I would NOT yell or tell my kids, especially in such a public place, to shut the fuck up and raise my hand at them. And if K did it to me I'd be PISSED.

I don't know. I don't really do the Dom(me)/sub thing anymore, so I guess maybe my input may not really be valuable. I think it's a matter of behavioral psychology again. An animal must be disciplined immediately after its screwup, or it doesn't connect the punishment with the undesirable behavior and thinks you're just beating it for no reason (or for the last thing it did, whatever that might be). People are capable of greater cognitive leaps than that, which is why we can "warn" a child (or a sub or whatever) with a Look or a pinch to the soft underside of the upper arm or something. We *know* that means "Stop now, or you're in for it when we get home."

Still, I sort of look at it as something akin to how one disciplines a child in public. I don't mean any offense to anyone, but I've always thought people who shout at or hit unruly kids in public were kind of crass and trashy and just wanted to show everyone else around them how "tough" they were. I don't think that kind of "discipline" is effective, honestly. Yes, I know kids (and apparently subs) do try to see what they can get away with in front of other people, but I've never seen a quietly uttered warning not work on someone who'd already been trained at home not to act like an asshole. It's a healthy fear--for lack of a better word--of what will happen once they're home that keeps them from come continuing to push. And if they're not "afraid" of what'll happen once they're home, then what the hell are you doing taking them out in public before you've taught them how to behave in the first place?

i would hope that Master would not try to backhand me in public. i do know that he would be disappointed in me and it would show in His face and i know that when we got home, my ass is grass. but to involve the public in our relationship like that, would never happen. IMO doing that in public would only make him look like an asshat to the 'vanilla world' and i would certainly understand why captain hero came around to "save" me.

would i say anything? what could i really say? "oh, don't worry about it, i like it when he smacks me" you think that's going to stop captain hero? no that's going to make it look worse and it's going to escalate. my advice, keep it out of the public eye and you won't have to worry about captain hero intervening.

BiBunny said:

Still, I sort of look at it as something akin to how one disciplines a child in public. I don't mean any offense to anyone, but I've always thought people who shout at or hit unruly kids in public were kind of crass and trashy and just wanted to show everyone else around them how "tough" they were. I don't think that kind of "discipline" is effective, honestly.

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Or it means you ARE NOT in control - which doesn't set a good example to your child. AND, in regards to this conversation, if you're the dominant and are expected to be in control . . .

Even in OSG's example of when they were at the wall it sounds like her master was in control.