FLDS compound

isthisdesire said:

bah, I'm not doing this again.
I have you on ignore for a reason.

Click to expand...

Yes. And that reason is the fact that you seemingly can't discuss anything with me re: this topic without trying to pass off false logic as a legit answer.

RoryN said:

Yes. And that reason is the fact that you seemingly can't discuss anything with me re: this topic without trying to pass off false logic as a legit answer.

Click to expand...

where is the false logic, kiddo?

isthisdesire said:

where is the false logic, kiddo?

Click to expand...

I post this:

That's typical with people who have interests related to the LDS church.

Click to expand...

You respond with this:

isthisdesire said:

the people you're posting about are not members of the Mormon church.

Click to expand...

...and that's a statement based on false logic. "People who have interests related to the LDS church" isn't suggesting that I'm talking only about Mormons. Pretty simple.

RoryN said:

...and that's a statement based on false logic. "People who have interests related to the LDS church" isn't suggesting that I'm talking only about Mormons. Pretty simple.

Click to expand...

you misunderstood my post. I was talking about the FLDS.
but whatever. I've had enough. for reals.

isthisdesire said:

you misunderstood my post. I was talking about the FLDS.

Click to expand...

So you're just jumping in again to protect the "good name" of the LDS church. Thanks for making my point for me.

RoryN said:

So you're just jumping in again to protect the "good name" of the LDS church. Thanks for making my point for me.

Click to expand...

Is that what she's doing?

I have no love for Mormons. I have no love for any religion that insinuates itself into a person's personal life and dictates how one should conduct one's secular affairs. In that respect, the LDS church is one of the worst offenders in the Christian-based denominations. But, I also don't like to see them accused of supporting and promoting polygamy. Mostly for two reasons. One, is that it's inaccurate. They don't support or promote it, and people who accuse them of such end up looking like frantic slanderers throwing mud at a wall hoping some will stick.
Secondly, it distracts from the REAL issues within the Mormon church, it's almost brainwashing approach to loyalty, its desperate insistence that its membership avoid friendship or even unnecessary contact toward non-Mormons, and the financial power that it wields over its adherents.

breakwall said:

Is that what she's doing?

Click to expand...

Seems like it. And she certainly has the motive to, based on her connections to Mormons.

breakwall said:

I have no love for Mormons. I have no love for any religion that insinuates itself into a person's personal life and dictates how one should conduct one's secular affairs. In that respect, the LDS church is one of the worst offenders in the Christian-based denominations. But, I also don't like to see them accused of supporting and promoting polygamy. Mostly for two reasons. One, is that it's inaccurate. They don't support or promote it, and people who accuse them of such end up looking like frantic slanderers throwing mud at a wall hoping some will stick.

Click to expand...

Frankly, given the history of Mormon doctrine, Joseph Smith, et al, I don't see how anyone could be emphatic in stating that there isn't a possibility they might still support it in some fashion. Add to that testimony of ex-Mormons, Mormon scholars, and so forth...

breakwall said:

Secondly, it distracts from the REAL issues within the Mormon church, it's almost brainwashing approach to loyalty, its desperate insistence that its membership avoid friendship or even unnecessary contact toward non-Mormons, and the financial power that it wields over its adherents.

Click to expand...

True - people make a bigger deal about polygamy than they do the other issues (and they shouldn't, IMHO). Our "Christian nation" harps on marriage.

RoryN said:

Seems like it. And she certainly has

Click to expand...

"Seems like it" is exactly the same approach she used and that you gave her shit for.

Frankly, given the history of Mormon doctrine, Joseph Smith, et al, I don't see how anyone could be emphatic in stating that there isn't a possibility they might still support it in some fashion. Add to that testimony of ex-Mormons, Mormon scholars, and so forth...

Click to expand...

Following this logic, you could still accuse the US of supporting slavery. Yes, it's a part of the past. Yes, it's something that the US once supported and even promoted. And yes, there are Americans out there who still think blacks are lesser people than whites and don't deserve equal treatment.

True - people make a bigger deal about polygamy than they do the other issues (and they shouldn't, IMHO). Our "Christian nation" harps on marriage.

Click to expand...

And yet makes divorce easier and easier every year, it seems. Kind of ironic.
It's getting to the point where if a polygamous marriage is happy, it isn't unusual because of the number of partners. It's unusual because it's happy.

breakwall said:

"Seems like it" is exactly the same approach she used and that you gave her shit for.

Click to expand...

You'll have to explain that one a bit further.

Regardless, isthisdesire is outwardly pro-Mormon, and has friends & family who are involved (or have been involved) with the LDS. That could reasonably be considered a source of bias. I have my own bias re: Mormons, but I've always been up-front about it. Isthisdesire absolutely has not been when it comes to her recent commentary.

breakwall said:

"Following this logic, you could still accuse the US of supporting slavery. Yes, it's a part of the past. Yes, it's something that the US once supported and even promoted. And yes, there are Americans out there who still think blacks are lesser people than whites and don't deserve equal treatment.

Click to expand...

Using my initial logic you reference, one could argue the US still supports racism. Something I believe to be true. However, the US is not as concise an org as the LDS Church, and yes, I believe some of their monies are going towards pro-polygamy causes.

breakwall said:

"And yet makes divorce easier and easier every year, it seems. Kind of ironic.
It's getting to the point where if a polygamous marriage is happy, it isn't unusual because of the number of partners. It's unusual because it's happy.

Click to expand...

I think marriage, in any form, is an institution past its prime.

RoryN said:

You'll have to explain that one a bit further.

Regardless, isthisdesire is outwardly pro-Mormon, and has friends & family who are involved (or have been involved) with the LDS. That could reasonably be considered a source of bias. I have my own bias re: Mormons, but I've always been up-front about it. Isthisdesire absolutely has not been when it comes to her recent commentary.

Click to expand...

you're an idiot. I've never denied knowing people who are/have been involved with the church. quit making shit up.

isthisdesire said:

you're an idiot. I've never denied knowing people who are/have been involved with the church. quit making shit up.

Click to expand...

Is it that you can't help but misinterpret what people post, or are you doing it on purpose?

I never said you denied it. I said you weren't up front about it in regards to your recent commentary. Clear enough for you, kiddo?

breakwall said:

Is that what she's doing?

I have no love for Mormons. I have no love for any religion that insinuates itself into a person's personal life and dictates how one should conduct one's secular affairs. In that respect, the LDS church is one of the worst offenders in the Christian-based denominations. But, I also don't like to see them accused of supporting and promoting polygamy. Mostly for two reasons. One, is that it's inaccurate. They don't support or promote it, and people who accuse them of such end up looking like frantic slanderers throwing mud at a wall hoping some will stick.
Secondly, it distracts from the REAL issues within the Mormon church, it's almost brainwashing approach to loyalty, its desperate insistence that its membership avoid friendship or even unnecessary contact toward non-Mormons, and the financial power that it wields over its adherents.

Click to expand...

I agree with your first paragraph. Your second however - I have known lots of Mormons. Lived close to them worked with them and socialized with them. I never saw any signs of what you are saying.

Slowlane said:

I agree with your first paragraph. Your second however - I have known lots of Mormons. Lived close to them worked with them and socialized with them. I never saw any signs of what you are saying.

Click to expand...

I have. Within my own family, no less.

RoryN said:

I have. Within my own family, no less.

Click to expand...

Don't paint the whole church with the same brush.

HenryFastpants said:

Don't all religions that believe in an after-life essentially believe that you are "sealed" for eternity with your spouse? If you are married and your spouse dies, and you remarry, then (s)he dies, then you die... who is married to whom in the after-life? I don't see the distinction you are making with respect to Mormons.

Click to expand...

Not all, but I think some do. I'm not certain, but I believe that for a Catholic to remarry after a spouse dies, you have to get the first marriage annulled. I could be wrong about that.

smartandsexy said:

I don't know of any other Christian churches that believe in eternal marriage. I'm not saying there aren't any, but I don't know of any. Most Christian wedding ceremonies involve the words 'till death do us part'. In addition to marriage, mormons have sealings which take place in their temples. Husbands are sealed to wives and they can be sealed to their children as eternal family units. Marriage is 'till death do us part', sealings are 'for time and all eternity'.

Click to expand...

Then there's this excellent point about Death doing us parted. I haven't made a study of it, but I think Catholic weddings include the phrase.

Slowlane said:

Don't paint the whole church with the same brush.

Click to expand...

I'll offer you the same advice.

Slowlane said:

Don't paint the whole church with the same brush.

Click to expand...

now who's the undercover Mormon trying to trick the GB into LDSing?


you were on his side not long ago. come to your senses?

RoryN said:

You'll have to explain that one a bit further.

Regardless, isthisdesire is outwardly pro-Mormon, and has friends & family who are involved (or have been involved) with the LDS. That could reasonably be considered a source of bias. I have my own bias re: Mormons, but I've always been up-front about it. Isthisdesire absolutely has not been when it comes to her recent commentary.

Click to expand...

Yes, but you were accusing her of using 'flawed logic'. Then you went ahead and made assumptions based on your own bias, rather than what she was actually saying. That too is flawed.

Using my initial logic you reference, one could argue the US still supports racism. Something I believe to be true. However, the US is not as concise an org as the LDS Church, and yes, I believe some of their monies are going towards pro-polygamy causes.

Click to expand...

The US, as an institution simply doesn't support racism. Just like the Mormon church in regards to polygamy, they have a clear and definitive mandate that outlines their position. And just like the Mormon church and polygamy, racism still happens regardless of the Federal Government's stance on it.

As for funding pro-polygamy causes, first of all you'd have a hard time proving that. If they were, it would be their darkest secret. Secondly, it wouldn't really make a lot of sense. What pro-polygamy causes would need funding? A defense fund? The only polygamy cases that ever come up are related to the FLDS, and the Mormons are not in the business of funding those they consider heretical. And make no mistake, there is no gray area in the Mormon church when it comes to ideology. You are either INSIDE the LDS church or you are OUTSIDE. The FLDS is outside.

The risks of supporting polygamy in the Mormon church are too high. I just feel that they've moved their doctrine past that. The desire for, and the need for, polygamy is long past. It was instituted originally as a method for increasing population of their settlements, first in Nauvoo, then in Utah. That mandate has run its course.

I think marriage, in any form, is an institution past its prime.

Click to expand...

Well, you won't get an argument from me.

Peregrinator said:

I'm not certain, but I believe that for a Catholic to remarry after a spouse dies, you have to get the first marriage annulled. I could be wrong about that.

Click to expand...

As a former Catholic, I can confidently say that a widow or widower can remarry without the need for an annulment of their first marriage.

breakwall said:

polygamy...was instituted originally as a method for increasing population of their settlements, first in Nauvoo, then in Utah.

Click to expand...

That's a myth that most church members are told. The facts don't check out. There was no shortage of men at the time (according to both census records and church records), and Joseph Smith was also married to women that were already in existing marriages to other men. Another myth is that polygamy was instituted as a way of taking care of older, widowed women. Moreover, not every man was called to plural marriage, only those in leadership positions in the church got that perk. The church gives no official explanation for polygamy other than it was revealed that God wanted that for his Church at that time, and it that it was later revealed that God didn't want it.

Info on male vs female numbers
Info on polyandrous marriages in the early church
Info on the ages of Joseph Smith's wives

ETA - here's a link giving the official LDS apologetics line on polygamy. The document is long, but interesting in parts, but you can skip to p51 which covers the possible reasons for polygamy. None of the positions that most ordinary mormons have been taught (lack of men, looking after widows) is in there, because they are verifiably historically inaccurate. Yet many LDS still believe them to be true. From what I can gather from the mormons I know, 'obedience' seems to be the current popular way to understand polygamy.
LDS apologists on polygamy

To clarify, I can see how the stuff I've posted in this thread might come as a bash against mormons, but that's not my position on the Church. They believe a lot of weird stuff, but so do most other religions, so I'm not going to rag on them for that. There are many things I admire the LDS for. I just find their doctrine, history and apologetics fascinating, and I've just tried to add to the conversation with a little of the information I've learnt - it probably comes off negative here because I'm presenting information that challenges widely held ideas about the church that might be a little off base. So be it.

isthisdesire said:

now who's the undercover Mormon trying to trick the GB into LDSing?


you were on his side not long ago. come to your senses?

Click to expand...

Keep guessing, it makes you look sooooo intelligent.

RoryN said:

I'll offer you the same advice.

Click to expand...

I haven't said anything to indicate that I was giving the whole church credit or blame. Nor am I taking sides. I pointed out my personal experiences.

Slowlane said:

I haven't said anything to indicate that I was giving the whole church credit or blame. Nor am I taking sides. I pointed out my personal experiences.

Click to expand...

As did I.

So, if your advice was good enough for me, it's certainly good enough for you.

breakwall said:

Yes, but you were accusing her of using 'flawed logic'. Then you went ahead and made assumptions based on your own bias, rather than what she was actually saying. That too is flawed.

Click to expand...

Isthisdesire doesn't write particularly well. I misinterpreted what she was saying.

breakwall said:

The US, as an institution simply doesn't support racism. Just like the Mormon church in regards to polygamy, they have a clear and definitive mandate that outlines their position. And just like the Mormon church and polygamy, racism still happens regardless of the Federal Government's stance on it.

Click to expand...

It's very easy for an institution to blame indiscretions on bad apples, rather than an underlying motive. Call me a skeptic.

breakwall said:

As for funding pro-polygamy causes, first of all you'd have a hard time proving that. If they were, it would be their darkest secret.

Click to expand...

If only that were true. Unfortunately, my dead grandmother and dead aunt won't be joining us in this thread to share their stories.

breakwall said:

And make no mistake, there is no gray area in the Mormon church when it comes to ideology.

Click to expand...

That church was practically founded on "gray areas" of ideology. Romney's Mormon family is nothing like Orrin Hatch's Mormon family, for instance.

breakwall said:

The risks of supporting polygamy in the Mormon church are too high. I just feel that they've moved their doctrine past that.

Click to expand...

The idea of the LDS Church as a mostly innocuous institution - or a progressive one - is as dangerous as it is wrong. I'm hopeful that someday they get exposed to the core. Under the Banner of Heaven woke a few people up, but there needs to be a bigger expose.

i don't really care about the polygamy. it's the racism the still exists on the pages of the book of mormon. that religion is based on some fucked shit.

killallhippies said:

i don't really care about the polygamy. it's the racism the still exists on the pages of the book of mormon. that religion is based on some fucked shit.

Click to expand...

You think the story of Jesus is hard to believe! This guy must have been a genius salesman to manage to talk even ONE person into the whole mormon story... that's some crazy shit man...