Vick: Guilty? Guilty? Guilty?

BlackShanglan said:

*nods* The school district in which my mother teaches just removed the option of "social" grade repeats - that is, holding a student back a year despite passing grades on the grounds that he or she would be socially better off in a lower grade - because of its growing popularity with parents hoping to increase their child's showing on the sports field. I seem to recall that it was one of the local football coaches who held his son back twice. If I'm remembering this correctly, I think the school district also ruled that students older than the "standard" graduation age are no longer allowed to compete in sports.

It's sad that it would come to that.

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We also had new rules instuted around here because high school coaches were "recruiting" from other districts. Parents would move (or send their kids to live with relatives) close to schools that had a good record of getting kids into college or the pros. King high school was famous (infamous) for this and many veiwed the change as a direct slap at them and their questionable tactics.

As a funny aside, despite usually getting the "best" athletes and putting so many into college (and several in the NBA), they routinely got their asses kicked when playing downstate schools that stressed team basketball.

BlackShanglan said:

*nods* The school district in which my mother teaches just removed the option of "social" grade repeats - that is, holding a student back a year despite passing grades on the grounds that he or she would be socially better off in a lower grade - because of its growing popularity with parents hoping to increase their child's showing on the sports field. I seem to recall that it was one of the local football coaches who held his son back twice. If I'm remembering this correctly, I think the school district also ruled that students older than the "standard" graduation age are no longer allowed to compete in sports.

It's sad that it would come to that.

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Our state athletic association has had rules like that for years. But there are athletic parents just as bad as the stage parents we read about pushing their kids in Hollywood. They're either living vicariously through the kid or they just see them as a free gravy train instead of looking out for their true best interests.

3113 said:

But as compared to someone in AA, Vick didn't say, "Man, look at what I'm doing to dogs and shit, I've got a problem!" Vick said, "How do I get out of this..." and found, to his dismay, that there was no escape, so to jail he goes. I think it's why I'll be a little skeptical if he does announce that he rediscovered God while in prison. Because it's likely to seem less like a way of "turning his life around" (i.e. that he had a terrible problem and did terrible things, and needed heavenly help to solve that problem) and more like a way of convincing folk to let him go back to a life of wealth and fame.

I suppose, to my way of thinking, that anyone looking at their "problem" in this instance, would realize that in this instance, wealth and fame were their alcohol, and that, as in AA, giving themselves over to God wasn't enough...they would also have to show good faith by going cold turkey on that alcohol. That would demonstrate their seriousness when it came to turning their life around.

At least, that's the way I see it.

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I don't disagree, but like an alcoholic, they need to hit rock bottom. Vick couldn't do that until he lost everything, and that won't be happening until the cell door slams shut behind him. Even getting booted from the NFL means that he has tens of millions of dollars and is considered "The Man" by the sycophants who have been kissing his ass for years (either wanting to be around the gravy train, or actually looking to live off of it). I'm sure he is miserable at the moment, but doesn't realize he has a problem. If he has a jailhouse conversion, hopefully it will help him to see the sickness of what he's done and how he's lived. There's no way he's a model citizen in other aspects of his life, but just happens to enjoy this as a hobby.

Emperor_Nero said:

Our state athletic association has had rules like that for years. But there are athletic parents just as bad as the stage parents we read about pushing their kids in Hollywood. They're either living vicariously through the kid or they just see them as a free gravy train instead of looking out for their true best interests.

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Labron James was mysteriously driving a Hummer in high school and his mom wasn't doing to bad either (for a single parent with a low paying job) with clothes, jewlry, etc... Every time he was on television, they showed his mom in the stands. Amazing how she could afford to travel so much on her salary. At least she was aparently a caring parent and he turned out OK. Unfortunately, he seems to be the exception to the rule.

BlackShanglan said:

this is now starting down in high school with the more talented players. Imagine what never hearing the word "no" from the age of fifteen forward could do to a person, especially when it gets coupled with massive amounts of money.

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It is a scary situation. The problem, of course, is that athletics is a young person's game. Yet, ironically, that's the *worst* person to offer wealth and fame and ethical freedom to. Young people, especially young athletic men, already feel invulnerable, willing to take outrageous chances with their bodies and such. Give them money that can buy them almost anything, give them fame that can get them into anywhere or get them almost anyone, and you've got the makings of a monster. Add to that the knowledge that they're such a valuable commodity that any crime or sin will be ignored...and you can pretty much predict they're going to end up just like Vick there. Doing awful things until they finally step over some line that even the greedy team owners can't ignore.

And I do blame the team owners--and everyone else who uses these guys as cash cows. There should be something in place here--a school of ethics and finance and handling fame that all team players have to go through before they're allowed the big money and the product-placement deals. Would that really be so hard a thing to do in order to *protect* that cash cow from ending up like this? Despised by the fans and on his way to jail?

At this critical time when most teens and young adults are learning how to manage their money, their reputation and their life and social responsibilities, these athletes are learning only that they're all powerful and untouchable. I'm not sure that anyone, convinced of that at such a crucial age, could be salvaged.

S-Des said:

We also had new rules instuted around here because high school coaches were "recruiting" from other districts. Parents would move (or send their kids to live with relatives) close to schools that had a good record of getting kids into college or the pros. King high school was famous (infamous) for this and many veiwed the change as a direct slap at them and their questionable tactics.

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This has been going on for decades. My high school won the national football championship (in 1968, I think). the next year, the property values shot up in the neighborhoods attached to the high school because of all the football hopeful families trying to move in.

3113 said:

It is a scary situation. The problem, of course, is that athletics is a young person's game. Yet, ironically, that's the *worst* person to offer wealth and fame and ethical freedom to. Young people, especially young athletic men, already feel invulnerable, willing to take outrageous chances with their bodies and such. Give them money that can buy them almost anything, give them fame that can get them into anywhere or get them almost anyone, and you've got the makings of a monster. Add to that the knowledge that they're such a valuable commodity that any crime or sin will be ignored...and you can pretty much predict they're going to end up just like Vick there. Doing awful things until they finally step over some line that even the greedy team owners can't ignore.

And I do blame the team owners--and everyone else who uses these guys as cash cows. There should be something in place here--a school of ethics and finance and handling fame that all team players have to go through before they're allowed the big money and the product-placement deals. Would that really be so hard a thing to do in order to *protect* that cash cow from ending up like this? Despised by the fans and on his way to jail?

At this critical time when most teens and young adults are learning how to manage their money, their reputation and their life and social responsibilities, these athletes are learning only that they're all powerful and untouchable. I'm not sure that anyone, convinced of that at such a crucial age, could be salvaged.

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Most leagues do offer programs like this for rookies coming into the league -- the NFL and the NBA in particular, I'm guessing largely because they've had the most problems in the past. Classes on dealing with fame, taking care of your money, the do's and don't of being in the public eye.

But just like everything else these kids have gone through, they either see the value, listen and pay attention or they don't see how it applies to them and do the minimum to get through and move on so they can keep doing things they way they want to do them. They are adults and, according to court rulings, they have a right to work as soon as they are adults.

3113 said:

It is a scary situation. The problem, of course, is that athletics is a young person's game. Yet, ironically, that's the *worst* person to offer wealth and fame and ethical freedom to.

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*nods* There's a bitter irony to it. The competition for the best players guarantees that teams will strive to give players what they want; unfortunately, having everyone around them devoted to giving them what they want is not what pretty much anyone that age actually needs. And yet I do also understand that the window can be small; many professional athletes will have only a few years to make the most of their abilities, and even the best in a sport like football will spend only a small portion of their adult life in that job.

And there's the horrible timing as far as age - just late enough that the player can make all of the financial decisions him or herself, and yet early enough that those decisions aren't informed by experience or harder-won maturity. What a mess. An older person with some strength of self-discipline might insist on having most of the salary put into an untouchable trust fund that releases funds gradually over time.

3113 said:

And I do blame the team owners--and everyone else who uses these guys as cash cows. There should be something in place here--a school of ethics and finance and handling fame that all team players have to go through before they're allowed the big money and the product-placement deals. Would that really be so hard a thing to do in order to *protect* that cash cow from ending up like this? Despised by the fans and on his way to jail?

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The problem here is that outstanding young football players do go to a school where they supposedly are taught at least ethics and finance. Unfortunately, the schools are using the multi-million dollar talents of the outstanding young football players without payment. If the schools really get into the ethics situation, they reveal themselves as almost totally unethical.

The finance aspect is tough. Many of the outstanding young football players grew up in the mean streets. In the mean streets, 'front' is everything. You gots ta' have the latest sneakers, the latest fad wear and you got ta' top it off with bling-bling. Unfortunately, when the outstanding young football players get out of school, they are still mentally living in the mean streets. They gots ta' have front!

How do you go about protecting a multi-million dollar, short term asset that the high school and the college used for free and then handed off to the pros to make incredible amounts of money for a very few years? If them po' boys ever realized how they was bein' mistreated, might jus' be a revolution!

R. Richard said:

The problem here is that outstanding young football players do go to a school where they supposedly are taught at least ethics and finance. Unfortunately, the schools are using the multi-million dollar talents of the outstanding young football players without payment. If the schools really get into the ethics situation, they reveal themselves as almost totally unethical.

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I'm on the fence there. I do agree that many schools have shown themselves exploitative and predatory - particularly when they churn and burn players who can't make the grades needed to stay in the college. The college gets a couple of years of good play from the player, and the player gets no degree, no professional career, and two years of loan debt if he wasn't on full scholarships.

On the other hand, the football program at even a small university is a multi-million-dollar payroll, and of course there are facilities and maintence for the grounds as well. It's true that the schools profit from their programs, but it's also true that the athletes can benefit as well. In the best programs, they can get a full scholarship and quite a lot of free tutoring and academic help; at even the worst, they are also learning more about their sport, making them better players and more likely to receive professional contracts. There is, after all, a reason so many choose to go to college, and it's not just the diplomas.

The finance aspect is tough. Many of the outstanding young football players grew up in the mean streets. In the mean streets, 'front' is everything. You gots ta' have the latest sneakers, the latest fad wear and you got ta' top it off with bling-bling. Unfortunately, when the outstanding young football players get out of school, they are still mentally living in the mean streets. They gots ta' have front!

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*nods* And now the "street" they live on is populated by incredibly wealthy people all putting out the most dazzling front they can. It must be easy to lose one's head trying to keep up.

How do you go about protecting a multi-million dollar, short term asset that the high school and the college used for free and then handed off to the pros to make incredible amounts of money for a very few years? If them po' boys ever realized how they was bein' mistreated, might jus' be a revolution!

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I've known some football players from one major university who seemed to be getting a better steer. They had a bigwig whose job was manage their student/athlete role with them; I can't recall what they called him, but he really did quite a good job. Athletes had a lot of academic support and discipline, including their own learning center with a tutoring staff and mandatory study halls several nights a week. Their ability to escape the study halls depended on their grades, so there was always an incentive.

But the football players I knew said that they also got a lot of guidance on social issues, things like how to comport themselves respectfully in classes and what things a 98-pound kid could get away with that in a 220-pound linebacker would look menacing. It showed, too. You could always tell who was on the football team by how politely they behaved in their classes. The only one I ever saw begin to behave rudely was immediately corrected by two of his teammates and shut himself up on the spot.

The other thing I remember about the bigwig, too, is that he spent a lot of his recruiting time with parents, emphasizing the academic benefits and strong support of his program, and the high rate of graduation. If I did have a child entering that field, I'd be looking up the name of that bigwig and tracking down the program he's in now.

R. Richard said:

The problem here is that outstanding young football players do go to a school where they supposedly are taught at least ethics and finance.

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But don't really good colleges, those that can woo the good players, provide them with easy classes to make sure the football players maintain their grade point average, and otherwise treat them more like prize athletes (to be coddled and catered to) than regular students? (In other words, aren't the colleges in some ways just as bad about not teaching their players better behavior?)

3113 said:

But don't really good colleges, those that can woo the good players, provide them with easy classes to make sure the football players maintain their grade point average, and otherwise treat them more like prize athletes (to be coddled and catered to) than regular students? (In other words, aren't the colleges in some ways just as bad about not teaching their players better behavior?)

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That all depends on the college. Some "powerhouse" colleges do have problems with grade-fraud and illegal "booster" contributions. But then some smaller schools that want to be powerhouses have even more problems.

As anal as the NCAA can be about enforcing it's rules, it does make a sincere effort to curb ethical problems and the majority of colleges make at least some effort to comply with the NCAA rules if only to avoid sanctions.

I think that contrary to the stereotype of the egotistcal "Jock," the majority of atheletes at all levels from "pee-wee league" to Major League professional are decent, ethical people. A few "bad apples" get a lot of publicity and feed the "bad boy" stereotype and a few teams don't seem to exert any postive influence on off-the-field activities -- Cincinatti Bengals, Miami HUrricanes, Oakland Raiders, etc -- but it is only a relatively small percentage that actually fit the stereotype.

Emperor_Nero said:

Most leagues do offer programs like this for rookies coming into the league -- the NFL and the NBA in particular, I'm guessing largely because they've had the most problems in the past. Classes on dealing with fame, taking care of your money, the do's and don't of being in the public eye.

But just like everything else these kids have gone through, they either see the value, listen and pay attention or they don't see how it applies to them and do the minimum to get through and move on so they can keep doing things they way they want to do them. They are adults and, according to court rulings, they have a right to work as soon as they are adults.

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Something that most people don't know (as they don't advertise it, for obvious reasons), the NBA has as part of it's introductory class a tutorial on groupies who are out to hook these guys. Whether it's women trying to get pregnant, or ones who are trying to get the guy in a Kobe Bryant situation (they actually recommend having the player's bodyguard stay in the room where sex takes place, if just out of sight), much of what these guys face are things that none of us would be prepared for.

BlackShanglan said:

I've known some football players from one major university who seemed to be getting a better steer. They had a bigwig whose job was manage their student/athlete role with them; I can't recall what they called him, but he really did quite a good job. Athletes had a lot of academic support and discipline, including their own learning center with a tutoring staff and mandatory study halls several nights a week. Their ability to escape the study halls depended on their grades, so there was always an incentive.

But the football players I knew said that they also got a lot of guidance on social issues, things like how to comport themselves respectfully in classes and what things a 98-pound kid could get away with that in a 220-pound linebacker would look menacing. It showed, too. You could always tell who was on the football team by how politely they behaved in their classes. The only one I ever saw begin to behave rudely was immediately corrected by two of his teammates and shut himself up on the spot.

The other thing I remember about the bigwig, too, is that he spent a lot of his recruiting time with parents, emphasizing the academic benefits and strong support of his program, and the high rate of graduation. If I did have a child entering that field, I'd be looking up the name of that bigwig and tracking down the program he's in now.

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Yes, there are schools that actually try to treat football players as human beings who will have a life after college and, hopefully, the pros. However, most of the colleges face an inescapable rule of life: "Win or die!"

The successful big university programs do have 'study programs' for at least their top players. Mostly the study programs consist of 'help with writing papers.' The help consists of another student writing the papers. The 'normal' classes that a football player takes are mostly a joke. The football player is guaranteed a pass, if he will only just show up for class on a regular basis. Strangely, the physical education classes are tough and require real work. [Name all the major muscle groups in the upper back. Describe expercises to develop each musccle group.]

A recruiter will sell whatever he thinks the parents and/or the athlete will buy. If the parents want academics, that's what he sells. If the athlete wants party, that's what he sells. The University of Colorado had a program for female cheerleaders. During the game, the female cheerleaders used their legs and jumped around a lot. During recruiting, the female cheerleaders used their backs and their pussies a lot.

One thing that the major universities do stress is average. If you can average six yards a carry and you go to class, you pass! If you can average two pancake blocks a game and you go to class, you pass!

I would suggest that you read the book, "Meat On The Hoof."

R. Richard said:

Yes, there are schools that actually try to treat football players as human beings who will have a life after college and, hopefully, the pros. However, most of the colleges face an inescapable rule of life: "Win or die!"

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Agreed. However, I know from the football players themselves that at that university, they were seriously expected to perform academically. They didn't get papers written for them, they didn't get invented classes, and some of them were genuinely struggling to pass some courses. They got the good kind of academic support: classes in study skills, mandated homework hours, tutors who could help them review and practice the skills they needed.

Please don't misunderstand me. I'm not trying to defend schools that abuse their student athletes, and I know that those do exist. I'm defending people who I know worked very hard for the grades they got, and did it while also meeting a grueling schedule of workouts, team training, and games. When I was rolling out of bed at 9:30 to get to a 10 AM class, they'd been up since 5 lifting weights and running sprints. It frustrated me to hear other students sneer at them and suggest that they didn't work for their grades; it was unbelievable how hard some of those men worked.

BlackShanglan said:

*nods* The school district in which my mother teaches just removed the option of "social" grade repeats - that is, holding a student back a year despite passing grades on the grounds that he or she would be socially better off in a lower grade - because of its growing popularity with parents hoping to increase their child's showing on the sports field. I seem to recall that it was one of the local football coaches who held his son back twice. If I'm remembering this correctly, I think the school district also ruled that students older than the "standard" graduation age are no longer allowed to compete in sports.

It's sad that it would come to that.

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I can't speak for the whole country, but at least in Nevada a high school athlete only has 4 years of eligibility.

I'm saddened...

how this case is dividing many Americans around racial lines. I am a white male, yet I wanted Vick to have his day in court to clear his name just like everyone else. Since he chose to plead guilty, one must only assume that all or part of the heinous charges against him are true. So, as a dog lover, I say lock him up and throw away the key.

And for all the apologists who say, "You just don't understand the culture of dog fighting," my only reply can proudly be, "You're damn right I don't!"

Weird Harold said:

I think that contrary to the stereotype of the egotistcal "Jock," the majority of atheletes at all levels from "pee-wee league" to Major League professional are decent, ethical people. A few "bad apples" get a lot of publicity and feed the "bad boy" stereotype and a few teams don't seem to exert any postive influence on off-the-field activities -- Cincinatti Bengals, Miami HUrricanes, Oakland Raiders, etc -- but it is only a relatively small percentage that actually fit the stereotype.

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But then, there's only a small percentage that get that much fame and that much money and that many athletic clothing endorsements. Most of the team players, good as they may be, do not stand out. Witness someone like Kobe--would anyone be watching the Lakers if he wasn't on that team?

Which is not to say that the other players don't face similar temptations. They're still making a lot of money, still getting a lot of attention and such. But if they do something naughty, most fans will shrug about it and maybe read about it on page three of the sports section. If a Kobe does anything untoward, it gets a front-page headline and an in depth look on the evening news...and for that much money and fame, maybe it should be front page news, because this person has influence, even if it's only because they have a natural-born talent that excels in an artificial competition.

drksideofthemoon said:

I can't speak for the whole country, but at least in Nevada a high school athlete only has 4 years of eligibility.

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I don't know about Nevada, but in many states it is possible to get an additional year of elegibility to make up for 'an injury year.' Also, in many states it is now against the rules for 19-year-olds to participate in high school sports.

BlackShanglan said:

My God, you have some puny gods and heroes.

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We have, obviously, different requirement for gridiron godhood and heroism.

From Netscape News . . .

Michael Vick Chew Toy
Sports – Minnesota's minor league baseball team, the Saint Paul Saints, will be giving away 2,500 Michael Vick dog chew toys as an expression of their distaste for the Falcons quarterback's lurid affair with dog-fighting.

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What a perfect gift for your animal lover friend (and their pooch).

Vick copped a plea. Says yeah, it was his kennel, he bankrolled the entire operation, and yeah, he participated in killing some dogs, but he NEVER bet on the operation.

He could get 12-36 months.

I hope the judge who sentences him shows him the same mercy he showed the dogs he bred for his blood sport.

carsonshepherd said:

Vick copped a plea. Says yeah, it was his kennel, he bankrolled the entire operation, and yeah, he participated in killing some dogs, but he NEVER bet on the operation.

He could get 12-36 months.

I hope the judge who sentences him shows him the same mercy he showed the dogs he bred for his blood sport.

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Can I get an Amen?!

of course he says he never bet. Illegal gambling would equal a lifetime ban by the NFL. It would allow the commish to sidestep any issues about cultural differences, etc.

If only this could happen...

http://www.wwtdd.com//ul/2777-hehe.jpg

S-Des said:

What a perfect gift for your animal lover friend (and their pooch).

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I read where the Atlanta Dog Pound is accepting Vick jerseys and other memorblia as chew toys. The irony...

R. Richard said:

most of the colleges face an inescapable rule of life: "Win or die!"

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<sigh>
Why should University's be the NFL's Minor League division? Why is often the top paid State Employee not the Govenor, but the Football Coach of the State University?

Oh, yes. Money. Silly me.

S-Des said:

the NBA has as part of it's introductory class a tutorial on groupies who are out to hook these guys. Whether it's women trying to get pregnant, or ones who are trying to get the guy in a Kobe Bryant situation (they actually recommend having the player's bodyguard stay in the room where sex takes place, if just out of sight), much of what these guys face are things that none of us would be prepared for.

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That's more than I thought they did, and less than they should. If my son or daughter was getting the kind of money some of these guys are, I'd think long and hard about asking them to set it up contractually that they get like $200K a year (that's more than enough for a single 21 year old), and put the rest into a trust they could start to tap when they were say 28, 30.

S-Des said:

Whether it's women trying to get pregnant, or ones who are trying to get the guy in a Kobe Bryant situation (they actually recommend having the player's bodyguard stay in the room where sex takes place, if just out of sight), much of what these guys face are things that none of us would be prepared for.

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What those players need, is someone on their staff to weed out the wheat from the chaff in the women offering themselves. Someone to assess their abilities in bed, their conversational abilities, etc. Hmm, I am looking for a second career. How do I contact them?