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Barbershop and Beauty Shop

-deezle- said:
We all have shit that ties us to history and ties us to culture, some of us just don't recognise it. Don't try to tell me that because your daddy is [ or may not be ] as black as any of the rest of us round the way that it makes you right about calling things one thing when they are clearly not.
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It makes me right in challenging your, "If I'm not mistaken you're a white kid right? What's your beef with it anyway?" bullshit. You assume I wouldn't have a vested interest. You're fucking wrong.

Moreover, that "[or may not be]" tells me you're holding out hope that I'm lying in order to cling to your stance. Bad news - I'm not.

You'll excuse me, then, if I'm not fast to answer your questions.
 
Rory the why does a movie that is all black have to be blacksploitation...? When hollywood feels it's okay to call a movie about a 'white' family can be called "American Beauty". The fact of the matter is that privately owned beauty salons have that type of atmosphere regardless of race. Becasue it's all black people, you feel that it is necessary to call it blacksploitation..? When it's just not the case.
 
I'm only questioning what you put out there to question. You could have just said 'actually deezle I'm of mixed descent now suck my nuts', instead you made it into a question which to me wasn't made concrete during your dramatic monologue.

For the record, I apologize for my assumption about your heritage.

I also stick by my earlier point in that you're reading way too much into it and I think if you really want to make a big deal about things, then maybe you ought to do something about it instead of being an armchair captain of the army for betterment of blacks and black entertainment.
 
medjay said:
What stereotypes? Either you haven't actually seen Barbershop or you haven't spent much time around real black people. Barbershop might not have been the greatest movie ever but it was reasonably funny and presented one of the rare and unbiased cinematic representations of what black communities are actually like. You had a wide range of characters from all walks of life and demographics; some educated, some not. Some successful, some less so. Good guys and bad guys. A well-rounded and -- to me as a black person -- inoffensive portrayal of black life. I can't say the same about many other films that feature us.
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I agree with this. Barbershop wasn't anything special, keeping in mind here that I'm not part of the film's target audience. But I didn't see the stereotyping. In fact, the Cedric the Entertainer who talks shit about Martin Luther King and Rosa Parks is someone we don't often see in mainstream films.
 
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-deezle- said:
I'm only questioning what you put out there to question. You could have just said 'actually deezle I'm of mixed descent now suck my nuts', instead you made it into a question which to me wasn't made concrete during your dramatic monologue.
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Read it again; you missed the point. Like I said, it doesn't matter that I'm mixed in the context of the argument. Not one goddam bit. I mentioned my father's ethnicity because I knew you'd care, based on your bringing up my race. Nothing more.

-deezle- said:
I also stick by my earlier point in that you're reading way too much into it and I think if you really want to make a big deal about things, then maybe you ought to do something about it instead of being an armchair captain of the army for betterment of blacks and black entertainment.
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And now you assume that, just because I spend time posting on Lit, I'm not involved in activism or efforts to address the issue. :rolleyes:
 
Wrong Element said:
I agree with this. Barbershop/i] wasn't anything special, keeping in mind here that I'm not part of the film's target audience. But I didn't see the stereotyping. In fact, the Cedric the Entertainer who talks shit about Martin Luther King and Rosa Parks is someone we don't often see in mainstream films.
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But the fact of the matter is, black folks ALL OVER have been saying that shit about Dr. King, Ms. Parks and Jesse Jackson [ to name a few ] for a very long time, it had just never been brought out into the open.
 
Wrong Element said:
In fact, the Cedric the Entertainer who talks shit about Martin Luther King and Rosa Parks is someone we don't often see in mainstream films.
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You're right.

Never has there been a greater affront to the status quo than Cedric repeating what black people have been saying for years in a mediocre film.

(sorry; I'm in glib mode.)
 
RoryN said:
Read it again; you missed the point. Like I said, it doesn't matter that I'm mixed in the context of the argument. Not one goddam bit. I mentioned my father's ethnicity because I know you'd care, based on your bringing up my race. Nothing more.



And now you assume that, just because I spend time posting on Lit, I'm not involved in activism or efforts to address the issue. :rolleyes:
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I assumed nothing. I made a statement based on what I've seen tonight. Have you been out picketing the opening of Beauty Shop in your town? Have you written to MGM to let them know how you, as a consumer, feel? I said what I said because it doesn't seem like you're doing a lot except for trying to keep this argument going with me, based on the fact that numerous people have raised disagreements with what you've said, but because I said something that got to you, you don't give a shit what they're saying. You're just ready to stick it to deez cause she said you didn't look black enough, which is not what I said at all. You do, as a man who has experienced race relations and racism in america have to understand that the majority of white folks are not going to understand racism and/or why blacksploitation was so hurtful to the community. So, if you're not going to attempt to discuss your beef with me and with what I've said like someone who has half a brain of sense instead of just coming back to attempt to throw in little snide comments, then I can see and will readily admit that this discussion will go nowhere. If that's the case, I'll just take my leave from the thread. Arguing on the internet isn't my thing.
 
RoryN said:
You're right.

Never has there been a greater affront to the status quo than Cedric repeating what black people have been saying for years in a mediocre film.

(sorry; I'm in glib mode.)
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Y'know, we usually see eye to eye on stuff around here but I have to say you're acting like a real dickhead in this thread.
 
Personally I am both critical (in the same vein as RoryN) and admiring of black films (esp. nearly everything with Denzel Washington or Angela Bassett, both of whom steer away from dumb.) Black films I feel is a suitable term to use because they are still perceived as a curio or exotic artifact depicting black life.

Blaxploitation was probably the wrong term to use (70's kung-fu crime capers with black characters.) But I think RoryN is correct that many if not most black films do cash in on the ethnic dollar- or stereotypes. With the exception of a minority of good films. In fact, even som films that appear not to, cash in on discrete stereotypes (e.g. pale black characters part. females good/sexy, dark black characters bad.) Most scriptwriters for black-lead films are actually white- Soul Plane is one of the recent exceptions (possibly not a good thing.)

Generally most films of all persuasions that come out of Hollywood are bad. Sequals are nearly always bad. But it is just that quite a few black comedy capers are both bad and stereotyping.
 
RoryN said:
You're right.

Never has there been a greater affront to the status quo than Cedric repeating what black people have been saying for years in a mediocre film.

(sorry; I'm in glib mode.)
Click to expand...

Maybe black people have been saying that for years, but there was a not insignificant controversy regarding the film for that reason. My point wasn't (obviously) that it was an incredibly brave attack on the status quo, only that it wasn't stereotypical, at least to my Caucasian ears.
 
-deezle- said:
I said what I said because it doesn't seem like you're doing a lot except for trying to keep this argument going with me, based on the fact that numerous people have raised disagreements with what you've said, but because I said something that got to you, you don't give a shit what they're saying.
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I'll refer back to response with Medjay. If you don't get my idea on the promotion of minority mediocrity in a broad context, you're not going to be able to debate it, whether you agree with it or not. That doesn't make anyone who disagrees with me wrong, but it does mean I'd have to re-state the same case over and over to respond to those who've missed my point. I've had to do this for years. Tonight, no.

-deezle- said:
You do, as a man who has experienced race relations and racism in america have to understand that the majority of white folks are not going to understand racism and/or why blacksploitation was so hurtful to the community.
Click to expand...

I don't appreciate you slighting people based on their ethnicity, as you do here. People are individuals; no matter what your perceptions are one race's level of understanding, any given white stranger may have the ability to understand what you're talking about. Even if it were only one in a hundred, you just practiced prejudice against that one person without even knowing them...and that's unforgivable.

medjay said:
Y'know, we usually see eye to eye on stuff around here but I have to say you're acting like a real dickhead in this thread.
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I can't come into this with someone playing the "You're white; you wouldn't understand, and why should you care" card. I've got my vulnerabilities. Maybe I can re-visit this tomorrow.
 
GirlMidnite said:
Personally I am both critical (in the same vein as RoryN) and admiring of black films (esp. nearly everything with Denzel Washington or Angela Bassett, both of whom steer away from dumb.) Black films I feel is a suitable term to use because they are still perceived as a curio or exotic artifact depicting black life.

Blaxploitation was probably the wrong term to use (70's kung-fu crime capers with black characters.) But I think RoryN is correct that many if not most black films do cash in on the ethnic dollar- or stereotypes. With the exception of a minority of good films. In fact, even som films that appear not to, cash in on discrete stereotypes (e.g. pale black characters part. females good/sexy, dark black characters bad.) Most scriptwriters for black-lead films are actually white- Soul Plane is one of the recent exceptions (possibly not a good thing.)

Generally most films of all persuasions that come out of Hollywood are bad. Sequals are nearly always bad. But it is just that quite a few black comedy capers are both bad and stereotyping.
Click to expand...

The writer and director of Barbershop is black.
 
GirlMidnite said:
But I think RoryN is correct that many if not most black films do cash in on the ethnic dollar- or stereotypes.
Click to expand...

So what? Films like Spiderman and X-men cash in on the geek dollar. Little Black Book cashed in on the chick-flick dollar. That's how it goes in the movie business.

Barbershop and it's sequels cashed in on an obvious market. As far as the quality of the film, that should not be an issue here. Every movie aimed at black audiences can't be like Antwone Fisher. The fact of the matter is Barbershop was written, produced and directed by black people (and you can't say it was also for black people since it's themes were all universal) and they went to some trouble to ensure that the film was as accurate and respectful to the black experience as could be. That in itself is an achievement. And for RoryN to dismiss it as "Blaxploitation" because he didn't care for the film itself is unfair and negates the fact that this is one of the few films that black people can be proud of.
 
RoryN said:
I'll refer back to response with Medjay. If you don't get my idea on the promotion of minority mediocrity in a broad context, you're not going to be able to debate it, whether you agree with it or not. That doesn't make anyone who disagrees with me wrong, but it does mean I'd have to re-state the same case over and over to respond to those who've missed my point. I've had to do this for years. Tonight, no.



I don't appreciate you slighting people based on their ethnicity, as you do here. People are individuals; no matter what your perceptions are one race's level of understanding, any given white stranger may have the ability to understand what you're talking about. Even if it were only one in a hundred, you just practiced prejudice against that one person without even knowing them...and that's unforgivable.



I can't come into this with someone playing the "You're white; you wouldn't understand, and why should you care" card. I've got my vulnerabilities. Maybe I can re-visit this tomorrow.
Click to expand...

I'll say this, quite clearly, as it seems you're not getting my point. I quite understand your idea, and I disagree that the barbershop and subsequent films are 'promotion of minority mediocrity'

Hope that got through.

Secondly, I am not slighting people based on their ethnicity, as much as I am stating the truth. We are different and even that is evidenced based on
wrong element said:
Maybe black people have been saying that for years, but there was a not insignificant controversy regarding the film for that reason. My point wasn't (obviously) that it was an incredibly brave attack on the status quo, only that it wasn't stereotypical, at least to my Caucasian ears.
Click to expand...

WE didn't say or do anything wrong, so much as there are actually some people who don't know that black folks have for years been touting Dr. King's indiscretions. Regardless of what some folks will say or do to make us all appear equal, we sometimes forget to acknowledge that we may be equal but in a lot of ways we are still separate. I can read clearly that you haven't calmed down so I will continue to read your thread as I'm interested in it but I will cease participation as it will go nowhere.
 
GirlMidnite said:
Really?

Maybe I'll give it a watch sometime. Who is the writer/director?
Click to expand...

Tim Story directed it, and a guy named Mark Brown wrote it. I had to look up his name but I liked Mr. Story when I watched the extras on the DVD so I remember his name.
 
medjay said:
So what? Films like Spiderman and X-men cash in on the geek dollar. Little Black Book cashed in on the chick-flick dollar. That's how it goes in the movie business.

Barbershop and it's sequels cashed in on an obvious market. As far as the quality of the film, that should not be an issue here. Every movie aimed at black audiences can't be like Antwone Fisher. The fact of the matter is Barbershop was written, produced and directed by black people (and you can't say it was also for black people since it's themes were all universal) and they went to some trouble to ensure that the film was as accurate and respectful to the black experience as could be. That in itself is an achievement. And for RoryN to dismiss it as "Blaxploitation" because he didn't care for the film itself is unfair and negates the fact that this is one of the few films that black people can be proud of.
Click to expand...

I have to be honest, I haven't seen the film- in fact, I know nothing about it apart from it takes place in a barbershop. So I cannot judge it. I sort of jumped on board because I like arguments regarding black films. But if RoryN dislikes the film, he's entitled to express this dislike- it seems that main bone of contention is that people felt his analogy was incorrect. I don't know if it was or wasn't- I am just disgruntled with many of the US black films that are marketed and shown in the UK- because the audience is primarily white in these cases, so they are not targetting an ethnic market- they are targetting markets that are attracted to the US black cultural phenomenon and are susceptible to stereotypes. (Do you know how horrible it is for a white lardy man to treat you as a video whore and attempt to speak to you in the Queens Ebonics to 'git down wiv your posse'? I doubt you do Medjay.)

And Spiderman and X-men were not targetting the geek market. Nope. I disagree with that. Their audience is studiously intelligent, with understated chic coupled with odd socks.
 
-deezle- said:
Secondly, I am not slighting people based on their ethnicity, as much as I am stating the truth.
Click to expand...

You're racist.

medjay said:
So what? Films like Spiderman and X-men cash in on the geek dollar. Little Black Book cashed in on the chick-flick dollar. That's how it goes in the movie business.
Click to expand...

The "they do it too" argument. Again. When are people going to stop relying on this one?

medjay said:
And for RoryN to dismiss it as "Blaxploitation" because he didn't care for the film itself is unfair and negates the fact that this is one of the few films that black people can be proud of.
Click to expand...

I can't express how sad that statement is.

But, I'll also say that it, in part, proves my point.

Getting back to said point, consider the production chain of command, not just writers / directors.

Consider that, not only do some people make a tremendous amount of money off of exploiting their "own people", they do so feeling justified.

Consider the amont of money to be made in not only marketing ethnic film (or ethnic ideals, in the case of marketing black film to white audiences), but simultaneously lowering the bar on said film's content in order to breed customer loyalty (read: sequels - I believe Barbershop had one :rolleyes: ). It's the perfect example of a path of least resistance to gain money...and it does so at the expense of our intelligence, and the perception of race in American society. Looks like Deezle is one casualty.

Er...didn't there used to be quite a few "big picture" people?
 
RoryN said:
You're racist.



The "they do it too" argument. Again. When are people going to stop relying on this one?



I can't express how sad that statement is.

But, I'll also say that it, in part, proves my point.

Getting back to said point, consider the production chain of command, not just writers / directors.

Consider that, not only do some people make a tremendous amount of money off of exploiting their "own people", they do so feeling justified.

Consider the amont of money to be made in not only marketing ethnic film (or ethnic ideals, in the case of marketing black film to white audiences), but simultaneously lowering the bar on said film's content in order to breed customer loyalty (read: sequels - I believe Barbershop had one :rolleyes: ). It's the perfect example of a path of least resistance to gain money...and it does so at the expense of our intelligence, and the perception of race in American society. Looks like Deezle is one casualty.

Er...didn't there used to be quite a few "big picture" people?
Click to expand...

I am far from racist, some of my best friends are white. [ that was a joke ]
And as far as mentioning my name in your bullshit, I'd appreciate it if you'd stop. I am a casualty of nothing, and a person of my own making.
 
-deezle- said:
Tim Story directed it, and a guy named Mark Brown wrote it. I had to look up his name but I liked Mr. Story when I watched the extras on the DVD so I remember his name.
Click to expand...

I'll give it a watch. I am sort of 1990's regarding my knowledge of black films. I think the last black films I saw (excepting African films, I watch a lot of films from Nigeria and Ghana) was Training Day (really good) and Bringing Down the House (*shudders*.)
 
Hollywood is 100% about exploiting whichever market will make them money. Blacks, kids, women, teenagers, soccer mom's and on and on. Why should blacks be any different? Do they need extra protection from concerned whites like [edit]me[edit]? Come on - blacks can make choices just like anyone else - and they can be manipulated by the media just like anyone else. Crappy movies know no race, color or creed.


fwiw - I thought Barbershop was pretty damn funny
 
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-deezle- said:
I am far from racist, some of my best friends are white. [ that was a joke ]
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Really funny.

Consider yourself exposed.
 
-deezle- said:
I am far from racist, some of my best friends are white. [ that was a joke ]
And as far as mentioning my name in your bullshit, I'd appreciate it if you'd stop. I am a casualty of nothing, and a person of my own making.
Click to expand...

You are certainly unique. In a good way :)
 
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ImSinister said:
Hollywood is 100% about exploiting whichever market will make them money. Blacks, kids, women, teenagers, soccer mom's and on and on. Why should blacks be any different? Do they need extra protection from concerned whites like you?
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Dismissed.
 
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